"Buyer beware" - the story of Keithatport's VR4

[elnevio]

And those are the missing posts. My response to follow...

[elnevio]

Now, to deal in part with matters raised:

M.O.T

The car was purchased from southampton car auctions (mca) by a Trader from Ireland

This car was mot'd by Mark Luney who is a trader from Belfast. He had this car advertised for 6 months but couldnt sell it.

I was contacted By Mark and we made a deal as he noticed that i didnt have a problem selling Legnums. I was advised that the car had m.o.t and that there was only 6 months left.

i have attached a copy of the last email received from Mark below:-

Re: vr4
Monday, 27 October, 2008 2:18 PM
From:
"mark luney" <marksluney@ntlworld.com>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
m11gen@yahoo.co.uk

ref number that you will need to quote on pickup is:- 599104148
you can pick it up from trade cars section at the port norfolk line birkenhead, you will need photographic id to collect it no id they wont let you have it so passport is good ,its all paid for and battery etc is all good on it even has petrol in it. the mot is in the glove box. 12 Quays Terminal, Tower Road, Birkenhead, Wirrall, CH41 1FE ...

This is interesting, seeing how on 16 November 2008, you stated quite specifically this:

I was very shocked as i had drove the car from Southampton docks and that was nearly a 280 mile trip and the car was totally fine

Which clearly throws up a conundrum - one of your two statements is evidently false, either you picked Keith's VR-4 up from Southampton, or you picked it up from The Wirrall. Now given that these types of actions are hardly things that you can be mistaken about (unlike 'did I have a cup of tea or coffee yesterday?', for example), it would appear, objectively, that you have lied in one of these statements. Yes, a LIE. I regret using such a strong term, but this is not relying on any other evidence, it is relying purely on your own clear and explicit statements.

Moving on:

i never checked the foglight to see wether it was working or not and neither did i check the advisory sheet.

If i had seen that there were faults why would i leave it attached to the mot..??

Now i dont know why the garage passed the car without the foglight but thats there problem.

When i was asked by Keith about the foglight i only told him what i was told, and if i knew that it wasnt a foglight switch i wouldnt have pointed it out.

Mark Luney is the person you need to speak to regarding this. I have just PM'd Keith his mobile number.

Now as far as i am concerned there was a foglight on that car

Later in this very same post, you have said:

I fit a temporary foglight that is double sided onto the rear bumper, the wire is then fed through the car and pushed under the trim. The switch is then wired normally from the cigarette lighter as most imports dont come with stereos and this makes it much easier to wire up. the switch is also double sided and this is a quick fix so i can pass the MOT

Well, we have another apparent contradiction. First you say that you didn't even bother checking to see that Keith's VR-4 had a foglight, and just relied upon something you had been told. Then you state that you systematically fit your cars with a temporary foglight so that it can pass the MoT, which would appear to infer that you would have done just that with Keith's. It makes no sense that you always fit a temporary foglight, but didn't even check for yourself that this, still fresh, import did or did not have one.

Now as far as i am concerned there was a foglight on that car and could possibly be that Keith and Peter are making it all up as they obviously are not getting a gearbox from me, so the best thing for them to do is promote that i am a dodgy trader so i lose business.

This is not a very persuasive allegation. Peter is a long-standing member, with a proven track record in contributing to the well-being of the club and the members. I find it unlikely that he would wish to damage his reputation and muddy the waters in such a way, just for what you apparently feel could be 'petty revenge'. I expect that those people who think that Keith and Peter might be doing what you suggest, are in a very insignificant minority. This sort of allegation could be viewed as libel, if not supported by substantiating evidence.

Well thats fine by me.

As explained to alot of customers who ask the same question regarding the rear foglight.

I receive my cars on a transporter and they get delivered direct to the M.O.T. station and then all work is carried out there.

I fit a temporary foglight that is double sided onto the rear bumper, the wire is then fed through the car and pushed under the trim. The switch is then wired normally from the cigarette lighter as most imports dont come with stereos and this makes it much easier to wire up. the switch is also double sided and this is a quick fix so i can pass the MOT

Then this system is then passed on from car to car so i can do all the mots in one day and then register them all together the following day.

This makes my life easier and also satisfies alot of customers that have always hated the look or the fact that there is a foglight dangling from the rear bumper.

Your description of this process is confusing:
- You receive your cars direct on a transporter - but you drive them up from Southampton?
- The cars are delivered direct to the MoT station and all work carried out there - but you fit the temporary foglight? So who actually does what work?

Furthermore, the foglight. It is a LEGAL requirement for any car registered in the UK to have a rear foglight installed in the centre or offside of the back of the car. This is not JUST to satisfy the MoT, it is to ensure that the vehicle complies with the statutory legislation passed by parliament in this country. It is tantamount to saying, "Well, I'll just make sure that it's got headlights in for the MoT, then I'll take them off afterwards and continue to drive the car without". Which you obviously wouldn't.

This is the first time I (and I wager that it's the same for pretty much anyone else reading this) have heard of a temporary foglight system being used in order purely to pass MoTs. This is quite frankly astonishing. Even more so that it is being done by an established trader. Even MORE so given that this is being done by an established trader with a history of dealing in imports. As such, you have a greater duty of care and obligation than the ordinary man on the street to adhere to the provisions of the Road Traffic Act and the other associated legislation.

Anyway, there are alternatives to the dangly foglight, the most common being either a cut-out in the bumper, or integration into the rear light clusters.

As for your comment about most imports not coming with stereos, well, this is surprising to me, as most imports I am aware of tend to come with a Jap-spec stereo, whether original or after-market, which are often replaced once on these shores. The reason I raise this admittedly minor point would be that the lack of stereo could well be a sign of how it was treated in Japan, such as poorly maintained, etc. I am not casting aspersions here, but if most good imports come with stereos, why do most of the imports you've had don't?

continued...

[elnevio]

...continued

You are the first customer to complain in 8 years of trading.

Of course we only have your word for this. Searching the net for 'Torque of the Devil' provides a raft of people, firms, businesses, etc. sharing the same name, and it is therefore nigh on impossible to find anything that may relate to you. Searching for 'Phat N Modified' only seems to return results linking to sales of your cars across a variety of forums. Given that by your own admission you have been trading for eight years, I would expect a much greater number of results to be returned. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to previous trading names, just so we can be satisfied that your credentials stack up appropriately.

Now a Reply to "chrisvr4"

You cheeky B!"£$%^d

I picked you and your wife up from the train station, put xenons in the car for you, it had broken drivers side wind deflector and i ordered you a full set but unfortunately they only sent me the front 2 and ripped me off. I even gave you the item number for the purchase so you could see that i was honest and that it wasnt my fault or error.

I advised you that i removed the sidelights and also for what reason and now you coming on here and slaying into me for no aparent reason.

You say i sent you the wrong side lights but you didnt contact me and tell me but you can come on ebay and yahoo and contact me and kiss my arse for a manual legnum, and now you chatting **** about me, you sly b!"£$%d

Well there is alot of people reading this and it is very hard to make and maintain good reputation, BUT all it takes is someone to talk **** and mess it all up.

Chris's posts were as follows:

i myself bought a car from zee about 4 months ago and have had numerous problems.

There is no rear foglight on the car and when i called zee regarding this he told me that he bolted one onto the back for the mot but took it off after and because it looked stupid, having looked under the bumper there is no evidence that he had done this,

also my car does not have a working horn, again i contacted zee and his reply was something must have happened when the speedo was converted to MPH, he told me that there are horns on the car, i have looked under the bonnet but cant seem to find any.

I saw my car on ebay for sale, and the advert CLEARLY stated that this car would not catch on any speed hump. Again this was also not to be true as i was driving around the front caught on a speed hump and left a 3cm split in the middle of my bumper. I had to get a garage to raise the car at a cost of £60.

Car also had a 12 month mot and was done at the same garage as peter's brother (great horton), also i had a reciept with a 30 day warranty, and car was sold as seen. I have only done a few hundred miles since i had this car and some faults are occuring.

There seems to be a missfire/juddering when being heavy footed, and i am hearing a creeking noise when i am turning left i.e parking up. I myself am questioning the mot station where zee is getting these cars mot'd.

Oh and another thing, the log book zee gave me showed my registration belonged to a mazda? but i have now had that rectified by the dvla.

***

... People have the right to know about this seller and it is up to them whether they deal with him.

***

I forgot to add this to my previous post, my car had no side lights when i bought it, again i phoned zee and he told me he took them out because the white light was not matching the xenon headlight conversion kit he installed to the car, he told me he would get some matching bulbs (blue) and post them which he did but they were the wrong fitment and could not be fitted.

Chris merely stated his version of events.

You have responded in part with outright abuse.

There are plenty of my cars on here and plenty of customers that have dealt with me that have positive experiences in buying cars and thats what matters

In the interests of objectivity, submissions from all Zee's customers are invited.


Anyway, to summarise:

Re: the origins of Keith's car - lying is not tolerated on this forum;
Re: the foglight - possible illegal activity is not tolerated on this forum, and if sufficient evidence is brought to the committee's attention, I would expect to be obliged to pass this information on to the relevant authorities;
Re: Peter and Keith's attempts to ruin your business - libel, or any other form of defamation, is not tolerated on this forum;
Re: response to chrisvr4 - abuse is not tolerated on this forum.

You now have an opportunity to respond. However, you should expect to receive sanctions in respect of one or more of the above issues.

Please note that I have responded to this personally, with limited input from other committee members, and as such, is generally a statement of MY thoughts and considerations. Action taken, if any, will be following full and due consideration by the committee.

[Nutter_John]

Not wanting to poor fuel on the fire , but to fit a temp fog light and then remove it after the car has past an mot is downright crazy and shows a some what lack of foresight .

You claim that you wire the switch to the fag lighter and then tuck the cable in the trim and through a hole to the fog light which is held of by double sided tape .

Why goto the hassle of fitting a temp fog light when for less than £20 and 2 hrs work you can fit a proper one , who gives a stuff that the customer may not like the look of it as it is a legal requirement to have a rear fog light .

So in essence My viewing of this point alone is that by your own admisision you are selling cars that are not in a road worthy condition caused by you own actions of removing the fog light after passing an MOT .

[Starscream]

Any MOT tester worth his weight would see though the so called temporary solution and as such fail the fog light due to insecure wiring. I would wager the fact that the cars have probably never even seen an MOT station.

I think that Peter and Keith have been very patient up until now I know that I would have gone ballistic well before this point. Do I recall Derek getting a load of abuse for a harmless joke about a pipe coming off during the test drive? As I seem to remember saying at the time it was far too much abuse for someone with nothing to hide. It is totally correct and within their rights that they have reported their suspicions about the MOT to VOSA and raised the selling activities of Zee to trading standards.

"Sold as seen" means just that, "sold as seen". To say something is "sold as seen" with a "30 day warranty" are contradicting statements. If you are trading as a car trader you cannot sell a car to a member of the public as "sold as seen" which is why main dealers send all their "sold as seen" trade in cars to auction.

In no way does the response given by Zee denote someone of repute with allegations and profanity splattered throughout.

[stuey]

Only one Pat n' Modified ad for Vr4's on Pistonheads at the Moment..

Definately worth notyfying them in the future of any unscrupulous trading going on, as I know the Admin guys there and they'd be dissapointed if Zee turned out to be a 'wrong un'.....

[psbarham]

so he's just admitted on a public forum that the vehicles he sells do not comply with the construction and use of motor vehicles laws (statute law, crown court prosecutable i believe) or the sva regulations, and that the reasons they don't comply is because of his own personal actions.

interesting

/goes and checks if this thread is in the members area

[HMG1K]

Posted by TORQUE OF THE DEVIL at 09:47 AM on 22 January 2009
When i was asked by Keith about the foglight i only told him what i was told, and if i knew that it wasnt a foglight switch i wouldnt have pointed it out.

Mark Luney is the person you need to speak to regarding this. I have just PM'd Keith his mobile number.

Agree with the findings that other members have said. With reference the above quote - I'm sorry, Zee, you are the trader here (not a private seller) so you are responsible for what you are selling, what you are claiming and standing by. You can't make claims of such things (as fog lights which are a legal requirements) and then pass the buck when they are not there - as in not my fault, speak to Mark. The fact that you have been ever so kind and passed on Mark's contact details does not clear you of your responsibility.

Personally? Zee should be reported - and so to the issuing MOT station as it sniffs as though cars are being passed in the knowledge that the car should fail. Even taking a car in with a fog light, in this instant, that doesn't look like a permanent fixture, would be seen as a nod to the MOT and would be failed.

[miller]

MY response at the time which subsequently deleted noted below in italics.
Anyways, im off to search companies house for details of Phat and Modified and/or Torque of the Devil. 8 years of trading must amount to something, if not then im sure HMRC will be interested!
Think you have just shot yourself in the foot Zee.

By simply removing the fog light immediatley makes the car unfit for road use as it would fail an MOT. Rendering it illegal and uninsurable


Regardless of the rest of the arguments between you and your customers i think you have just set your wares clearly on the public shelf so all can see how you operate.

Yes its nice and quick and easy to install a fog light and remove it. People are paying you decent cash for a FULLY operational motor. Not all of us are 'fly by night' operators and some of us would prefer to stay legal ensuringt all our documents are up to scratch.

Does your MOT station know you remove the fog lights? If so this renders them liable to any damages/litigation that your customers and/or VOSA may impose on you.

You have a chance to sort these things out, not come on here calling people 'sly b!''£$%d' That kind of comment really shows you are an amatuer in the world of 'professional car sales'



In Keiths case im assuming Keith paid this 'Mark Luney' for the VR4 not you? Will his bank statement prove that? Doubt it, now stop trying to pass the buck. Sort it out ASAP. If your sensible you will realise you now have a chance to rectify all these problems and prove you are how decent you keep telling us you are. Sort Keiths gearbox NOW plus settle with Chris for all the extra work he will need for his car to LEGALLY pass an MOT



Just my tuppence


Mike

[Kieran]

Having just caught up with this thread I'd like to thank Nev for restoring the missing posts and also for his response - I believe it is fair and the criticism within is wholly justified.

The only comment I would make is regarding MOTs - As well as the foglights, I recall both Keith and Chris saying that they both had inoperative horns - Is that correct? If it is, then that raises a further question. Okay, sometimes they just go... But both cars? And so soon after both getting a ticket? Hmmm.

[miller]

Yes too, well done Nev for an informative post and response

[peter thomson]

Yes that's correct .It has twin aftermarket horns fitted behind the upper grille but the fault with the horns was only discivered about a month ago when they were required. At the moment the original wires have been reattached to one of the OE horns and it works fine. Can't really say any more about them as it took a long time to discover they weren't working but I think Chris's car has not had workinh horns since he bought it.

Having just caught up with this thread I'd like to thank Nev for restoring the missing posts and also for his response - I believe it is fair and the criticism within is wholly justified.

The only comment I would make is regarding MOTs - As well as the foglights, I recall both Keith and Chris saying that they both had inoperative horns - Is that correct? If it is, then that raises a further question. Okay, sometimes they just go... But both cars? And so soon after both getting a ticket? Hmmm.

[peter thomson]

Yes as do I .That was an excellent response.

Yes too, well done Nev for an informative post and response

[mitsugaz]

my imported subaru legacy has a refusal for mot certificate because the fog light was not fitted so i find this hard to fathom out that someone can sell a car having previously stated that it was on and then took it off and as for the horns not working on both cars it certainly doesnt sound as if these cars have been fully motd i would be very sceptical of buying from zee in the future not saying this couldnt be solved by a bit of customer courtesy and goodwill though as anyone who has been in the motor trade like myself will know you get a bad reputation and people will go elsewhere.

[keithatport]

Thanks to all who have posted especially Nevand Kieran. I have not had a PM from Zee but his may be due to the problems the forum has been experiencing.

[chris g]

Hopefully problems can be sorted - would not like to have to go through such things to sort a new purchase

Afterwards Zee should be a 'Trader' on here and not an indivudual who sells cars

It has already been mentioned so if he stays around he must be a 'Trader'

[nelly101]

hi i myself have bought a car from zee, last week in fact.It also has no fog light which is an issue but i contacted zee and he has agreed to supply the parts so it can be fitted and my car so far has had no other problems.To be honest I have never had any problems contacting him so i can see in no way he has ment this in away to con people.They are issues that need sorting and i hope all partys can come to an agreement without a slanging match taking place.

That said i believe the mot station should also look at its practises or someone should alert the correct people because they could be putting peoples lives at risk if they are at all doing dodgy mot's!!

[richinleeds]

I may aswell throw my opinion in, again i bought the mauve Legnum that Zee had for sale last week. So far so good only 1 problem i've discovered today, again the horn is not working as it should i haven't mentioned this to Zee as tbh its a minor problem that i'll sort out myself.

Although the car i have bought used to belong to someone on here (hopefully they might say hi) so there's no MOT issues has Zee hasn't done anything to it.

Rich

[shaun1978]

I'd like to know how the one he has advertised at the minute has 300bhp when all it has is an exhaust?

[MarkSanne]

Slighty offtopic about the horns: when my self imported Legnum was road-legal tested by the dutch authorities (very heavy testing including top-speed drive on the dutch test-track they use) they found out the standard orginal horn (single one, hidden at the right side in the engine bay close to the right wheel) it was noted the horn didn't make (4 or 6 db) too less noise. That meant a fail. I had to put in aftermarket (hella) horns which worked fine, but once I got back to the test one had virtually died (or got too less power). Within a few days! Seems like connecting horns is something that must be done with more effort than one would think.