Originally Posted by funkstardelux
Sorry! But after a long day at work...................PMSL
As above, the diesel won't win on performance outright. But remap any modern diesel, and the price/performance compromise is such that it just doesn't make sense using a VR4 as a daily hack. It's not even close.
The VR4 will just edge it......but is paying more than twice as much per mile worth it for insane cornering ability that you rarely use, and being a car length ahead in a rolling drag?
Nick's justification above is probably the only reasonable one: The local, limited mileage family car that does the occasional track session. I was running thrtough the numbers last night, and it's close enough to owning another car to make the compromise reasonable.
I have - it's my commuter car. £800+ a month in fuel was just ridiculous (that's with an average 75mph cruise) for some excellent handling and around 200bhp atw.
Now I have 140bh atw, a much lighter, smaller car and a fuel bill which looks like working out at around £300pcm.
I am not comparing the new car to the VR4 as they are totally different vehicles.
What I AM doing is comparing cars that do MOST of what the VR4 does, but for half the cost.
Don't get me wrong - nothing drives like a VR4. It's the single most responsive car I've ever driven and with the auto it virtually drives itself - even very very fast.
But if you want a performance car, the Evo is faster, better for fast driving, and cheaper to run- and nearly as spacious and comfortable as the VR4 for daily usage. The catch is that you have to spend a lot of wonga to get an estate......but if you're doing a lot of miles, it wouldn't take long at £800+ a month of VR4 money!
If you want a daily hack that handles 85% as well as the VR4, is comfortable, and reasonably quick and is an estate car, the Europeans do it better using diesel.
The VR4 is a very very niche car, and I think 90% of people don't fit that niche.
1 car length
Edit: 99.9999999999999%
And that is why i have a VR4
It is definately a nieche car....i had no purpose for an estate but i loved the rarity and the fun of the car...it cost me like 60quid every three days in fuel haha but i didnt care it is 100% the most fun car i have ever owned.
Peoples faces at drag days when it turned up.....and then how they changed after it ran...priceless...
My mates single turbo soarer with x y z mods still couldnt run a faster 1/4 mile time this weekend and its producing over 400lb ft and 350hp.
Oh and when my mother needs **** taking to the tip i could do that for her aswell
I've just been through this debate with myself, and ended up selling the Legnum and replacing it with a Saab 9-5 Aero estate.
I don't do a lot of miles a year, but I do need the estate - most of my longer trips are 4-up with a bootload of equipment. The Legnum did a steady average of 20.5mpg overall, but I never managed more than 250 miles on a tank of petrol. Add to that the requirement for V-power or similar, and it became awkward doing 300+mile round trips with 4 up, coming back at 2 in the morning and looking for shell stations on the way.
I loved the Legnum when I was driving it "properly" - out on my own with no passengers to scare, not going huge distances, driving somewhere nearer to the capability of me and the car - but in reality, that's a very small percentage of my driving in any given period; I think I can count twice that I've done that this year, and most of my miles are cruising. I've also never been on a track day in my cars, and in all reality I probably never will; if I did, I suspect I'd want something more focussed, like an Evo or Impreza.
I don't have the space, time or money to run and use a second car, so I need one all-round vehicle that's big enough, economical enough and entertaining enough to do everything. In my dream garage (where I have enough money to have a much bigger house, garage & driveway, and never need to work again) there would almost certainly be a VR-4 - probably a Galant rather than a Legnum - but for my normal life it just didn't fit any more.
I did debate "improving" the Legnum to the point where it would make sense for me - which involved : making the exhausts much quieter, fitting cruise control, replacing the front seats, and adding an LPG tank purely for the extra range. None of this is work I could do myself, and the total costs started to get towards £2500+ - or roughly the same as the value of the car.
I looked at some of the modern diesel estates - 330 & A4 are too small, couldn't stretch to a 530 or A6 just now, Accord was dull to drive, and the diesel Mondeos are very rare, certainly in my price range. The Saab 3.0 diesel was interesting and very quick in normal driving, but reputed to be very fragile.
The Saab Aero has around 230bhp, a bigger load area than the Legnum, it's much more comfortable/quiet on a run, does 450-500 miles on a tank and is showing 28 mpg overall. It also has cruise control, good lumbar support and dual-zone climate. At some point, I'll probably add the heated electric seats as well. When I want it to be fast, it certainly is - maybe not ultimately VR-4 fast, but plenty for everyday fast road driving. For me, it's a better everyday compromise than the Legnum - and it'll completely pay for itself in 2 years just on reduced fuel and servicing costs. Price ? Including all remedial work needed at purchase, about the same as a VR-4.
Audi A4 3.0TDI with £300 remap: 275bhp, 400lbft, and it weighs a fair bit less than the VR4.
VR4 with boost control will be making about the same, but have more transmission losses, and all the weight.
Even with your foot flat, the Audi returns >20mpg.
So how much can you pick these up for Steve
LOL! I knew you'd say that!And you're completely correct these generally are more expensive than your average, used, VR4.
Unfortunately, it's not much - you can pick up an A4 3.0TDI for Facelift or Fresh Import money, which surprised even me!
If you want to settle for the 2.5TDI (runs around 240bhp after remap) or the 2.0 (will make 190bhp) they go for a lot less. The 2.5 will be around a car length behind the VR4 IMO.
Of course, what this doesn't allow for is cornering, which the VR4 will excel at!
And I often slam it around roundabouts at high speed whilst 4 up and with a fridge in the back. Ah - no, not since I broke the back window, and had to wait 8 weeks for the insurance to replace it because the car is an import, or stump up £800 pounds to do it myself.
Chap at work just had someone break his back window in his Audi. He had to wait behind at work for a couple of hours for the glue to dry before he could head home.
I can add just one think.
VR4 with LPG conversion.£38 for 250 miles doing daily commuting arround 20 miles/day.On motorway driving 260-270 miles keeping under 3500rpm.for same price.
I think is not too bad.
Csaba= Chaba to pronounce
VR4
Anything else is just a compromise,maybe a E500 not
That does make the VR4 a more economical proposition - (disregarding servicing, which I'm prepared to view as a worthwhile trade off for the handling). How much is the kit, though (if buying and having fitted, not from someone you know).
And that's 250miles for £38 against 400miles for £50 in the diesel....BUT you get to drive a VR4.
For £1500-1600 you can have the conversion with the max.size tank available(77 litres).That does make the VR4 a more economical proposition - (disregarding servicing, which I'm prepared to view as a worthwhile trade off for the handling). How much is the kit, though (if buying and having fitted, not from someone you know
And that's 250miles for £38 against 400miles for £50 in the diesel....BUT you get to drive a VR4.
Buy a diesel and keep the VR4?Just think;2xMOT,2xTax,2xinsurance + the cash you paid for the car...
Oh,and 2xproblems...
Is 3rd year since I use the LPG Leggies.Can't complain anymore.The winter-summer sttings is the only thing it made concern.Once you have the software for it just change them yourself.Or give a "advanced "setting,should pulling better like with petrol and your gastank going MT on 100 miles
When I bought the modified VR4 from Tim(Nice But) I brought it straigt away for Lpg conversion.He sold the car for same reason as you said Steve,it was horrible cost to fueling for long distances commuting.He bought a Honda Accord to replace it,but I'm sure that the converted VR4's cost of running is similar or less.
Actually, I was thinking "Buy a diesel and sell the VR4"
As above, I reckon the diesel is actually enough for every day use: you need to drive pretty hard to really appreciate the VR4's drivetrain, and in terms of handling and car weight things have moved on an awful lot in 10 years.
it aint' 10 years Steve the VR4 was released in 96 so would have been designed from 93 onwards , so it is a car that has it design based on early 90's tech
And stuff like the sprung weights are getting better and better all the time....lighter suspension components, multilink...etc etc etc
Weight distribution has become much more of a focus.
[pedant]
Ummm.... come again?
[/pedant]
The best things in life have to be lubricated
this argument is putting me off wanting to get a vr4... :-(
Can't think why Mike gets the impression that Steve is somewhat disenfranchised with the VR-4!
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I cant think why i suffered that train of thought eitherCan't think why Mike gets the impression that Steve is somewhat disenfranchised with the VR-4!
Its as bad as slander in a nasty divorce case.
''The court calls the case of Turbo Steve V Mitsubishi VR4''
Still here somewhere........
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