V6 throttle body on pfl VR4

[swinks]

Well, time to summarize my recent little mod which was TB swap. Potential benefits - obviously bigger TB, better air flow etc.
Here some tips and hints.
1. Choosing TB
For owners of auto pfl VR4 with TCL feature it seems that the most easiest option is to use Galant V6 n/a TB equipped with TCL. Usually this vehicles came out with "cruise control" feature as well, so important thing is not to mistake vacuum canisters. Galant n/a tcl vacuum canister is located on other side of TB!
2. Pairing with intake plenum.
Intake diameter of plenum manifold. No chance, but it must be machined out, bored out etc. Whatever method we choose. Just be aware that unlike in VR4 hole is not positioned symmetrically so better buy any TB gasket from Galant v6 and use for drawing template.
3. Cooling.
Apparently water inlets and outlets are positioned differently. There is no problem, but involves much more effort to fit water cooling hoses. Just getting advice from gowf and psbarham we can pass by cooling TB due to our mild environment and having turbo application. I did pass by and works it's treat.
4. Not used vacuum lines
That means cruse control canister and one of 3 vacuum outlets. Just do blank them. I did connect vacuum canister with 3rd vacuum outlet on a top of TB. Works.

How does it works?
Faultless. Possible gains or losses not verified yet. Haven't been to dyno, but my a**s telling me there is some improvement in torque. AFR figures got richer on cold idle, afr dropped on WOT at 0.9 bar from 11.3 to 10.5, so there is massive area to play with.

Few pictures:
P1070315.JPGP1070302.JPGP1070301.JPGP1070304.JPGP1070308.JPG

[GalantOnly]

Just an add info: the standard inlet elbow will have some minor clearance problems with TCL vacuum lever

[swinks]

Well, little update and feedback after couple of weeks.
So far approached issues.
1. Heating bypass. Yes, it solves problem with fitting water cooling hoses, but I've noticed that it does effect also fuel consumption. Obviously vr4 fuel enrichment stays longer. Overall on average cycle I've noticed approx. 1.5l/100km bigger fuel consumption (according to my UTCOM)
2. Stepper motor. That's actually not an issue, but self inflicted problem. As many of you maybe have noticed, there are 2 different colours of plastic casing of stepper motors used in v6 or vr4 throttle bodies, brown and black one. If you look at them they seems to be identical stepper motors. Apparently not, they are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. So what happened?
I've fitted V6 throttle body, originally there was black stepper motor. But I thought that I need my stock one from vr4 TB (brown colour), so I've swapped them having v6 TB with vr4 stepper motor.
Apparently idle was spot on, and smooth revs. Just one thing which puzzled me a lot. Every time after acceleration (WOT) once foot being taken off "loud" pedal, afr didn't go to 20.0 or o2, but max. 16.1 and then bounced back to 12.1 slowly getting to 14.7. Very similar to having bov fitted. So first I did blame my bov fitted. Got back to recirc dv. Still the same. Also got quite rich fuelling whilst any sort of acceleration.
Well, few scratches in a head and original black (from v6) stepper motor fitted back in. And it was spot-on! No weired afr whatsoever and fuelling back to norm.

Overall, after few weeks driving I'd strongly recommend this simple upgrade. Vehicle feels much much better.
Just be aware that whole TB must remain unchanged (TPS, stepper motor).

[MarkSanne]

Interesting read! I've got a V6 TB on my VR2, but the stepper motor... not sure if it's the black or brown one! And on the Legnum I've changed my stepper motor recently for one that I had laying around, trying to solve an intermittent problem where after a long drive the idle revs fall down too low. Must check this one too asap.

[crazydriver81]

Just to add a little knowledge, the FL VR-4s with AT but without TCL/ASC feature did come with the large TB and suitable inlet manifold from factory.

In other words, get hold of an inlet manifold from these cars, will save you milling out anything...

[Davezj]

I am fitting FL throttle body to a pfl auto. @swinks
What do I do with the TPS APS wiring from the pfl throttle body as the fl throttle body on has the 4 wire sensor on the front of the throttle body. Will I have to rewire the TPS APS wiring into one 4 pin sponsor as per this thread.

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...+throttle+body

Also I do not have the extra vacuum actuator on the front of the fl throttle body, will this conversion still work?
I did not quite get the gist of what was said in the first post, is the extra vacuum actuator for the TCL system, the pfl throttle body one has the one vacuum actuator and the TCL works on that.

Any help will be appreciated.

[swinks]

What do I do with the TPS APS wiring from the pfl throttle body as the fl throttle body on has the 4 wire sensor on the front of the throttle body.

You can't replace all APS/TCL wiring. Simply because vacuum and electrical system is hooked together with ABS/ASC and TCL. Ecu flash won't solve that problem, etc.

Your problem is simply because:

I am fitting FL throttle body to a pfl auto.

You should source V6 throttle body with TCL.

[Davezj]

sorry i should have said i have a V6 throttle body but it only has the vacuum actuator on the rear of the throtle body and one TPS 4 pin, which i had assumed was what the fl throttle body looks like.

what does he vacuum actuator do on the n/a V6 TCL throttle body.
as the pfl VR4 does not need the vacuum actuator on the front of the throttle body because the standard PFL throttle body does not have the extra vacuum actuator why is it needed on a n/a V6 don't the vacuum solenoides on the engine bulkhead do that job.
i know you say i need n/a V6 TCL throttle body but you don't say why.

is our car an auto?
When you swapped yours what did you do with the PFL wiring to the APS sensor which would have been connected to the rear 4 pin APS sensor.

sorry to be a pain asking all these question but i never satisfied with a simple answer, i need to know why. i have always been like this ever since i was a kid.

[Davezj]

You can't replace all APS/TCL wiring. Simply because vacuum and electrical system is hooked together with ABS/ASC and TCL. Ecu flash won't solve that problem, etc.

what meant was, when you do a auto to manual conversion, you go from having 2 sensor on the throttle body (rear APS 4 pi, front TPS 3 pin) to 1 sensoron the throttle body (front 4 pin). To get this to work you have to splice the wiring from the rear sensor to the front one as described in the thread i linked to in mey above post. this keeps the ASC and TCL working and TPS error code from flagging up due to the sensor being missing.
What did you do to your wiring?

[MarkSanne]

The vacuum actuator is for cruise control. I have it on my VR2 too Original mitsu cruise control + slightly larger throttle body on the VR4 engine. Works, but consider that I didn't have TCL/ASC on the V6 from factory, so that probably makes it easier!

[swinks]

Dave, doing manual conversion I left all systems TCL/ASC/ABS intact. Just flashed manual image to ecu, but all wiring and vacuums were left as they had been. Hence I have 2 wiring looms one for TPS 3-pin and another APS 4-pin. And never been bothered with strange skiddy car control lights or virtual abs/tcl faults.

And for that reason I sourced myself v6 throttle body from TCL equipped vehicle (2 vacuum canisters). These TB have both TPS and APS sensors so perfect match.

Throttle body you did mention has fitted cruise control canister. No use at all, because it works on opposite idea as tcl canister.

[Colin Wiltshire]

Been thinking about doing this, but from what you have said before, I may not need to. I have a late F/L manual converted, non tc. Does this mean I already have the larger tb?

Also debating if I could go 3" tb? guessing plenum would be too small for this.

[swinks]

If yours is FL, then you have already bigger TB.
IIRC already 3"

[Colin Wiltshire]

If yours is FL, then you have already bigger TB.
IIRC already 3"

that would be good, I'll measure it when I get my car back

[adaxo]

If yours is FL, then you have already bigger TB.
IIRC already 3"

Had to disagree , mine T reg facelift (originally auto) has big TB with only one vacuum connection on top, got other engine from T reg facelift (originally manual) and small TB on it, again, only one vac out on top of TB, I know it puzzles me as well as I always think that all FL have bigger TB fitted but it looks like not always.

[swinks]

Had to disagree , mine T reg facelift (originally auto) has big TB with only one vacuum connection on top, got other engine from T reg facelift (originally manual) and small TB on it, again, only one vac out on top of TB, I know it puzzles me as well as I always think that all FL have bigger TB fitted but it looks like not always.

Yeah... well... whatever...

The point of this thread was to find a solution for fitting bigger TB into vr4 equipped with TCL.
Other swaps/mods, i.e. manual vr4 or fl vr4 are pretty straight forward: variety of different throttle body to fit. It's not a rocket science hence don't bother me at all.

[Davezj]

Dave, doing manual conversion I left all systems TCL/ASC/ABS intact. Just flashed manual image to ecu, but all wiring and vacuums were left as they had been. Hence I have 2 wiring looms one for TPS 3-pin and another APS 4-pin. And never been bothered with strange skiddy car control lights or virtual abs/tcl faults.

And for that reason I sourced myself v6 throttle body from TCL equipped vehicle (2 vacuum canisters). These TB have both TPS and APS sensors so perfect match.

Throttle body you did mention has fitted cruise control canister. No use at all, because it works on opposite idea as tcl canister.

Still a little confused,
When I mention about the vacuum actuator on the front of the throttle body, I was refering to your pictures of Your car in the first post it has a vacuum actuator on the front as well a the back.
What are you actually refering to when you say vacuum canister?
when I refer to vacuum actuator, I am talking about the squashed metal doughnuts with the vac pipe attached to the top.

On a side note, If you do the wiring convertion when doing a auto to manual conversion, does the tcl asc still work on is the wiring conversion just to stop the error codes due to loosing the rear APS sensor when swapping the throttle body.

I am quite capable of doing rewriting if it is possible to use a n/a V6 throttle body with only one 4 pin sensor on the font and one vacuum actuator on the back.

[swinks]

Still a little confused,
When I mention about the vacuum actuator on the front of the throttle body, I was refering to your pictures of Your car in the first post it has a vacuum actuator on the front as well a the back.
What are you actually refering to when you say vacuum canister?
when I refer to vacuum actuator, I am talking about the squashed metal doughnuts with the vac pipe attached to the top.

On a side note, If you do the wiring convertion when doing a auto to manual conversion, does the tcl asc still work on is the wiring conversion just to stop the error codes due to loosing the rear APS sensor when swapping the throttle body.

I am quite capable of doing rewriting if it is possible to use a n/a V6 throttle body with only one 4 pin sensor on the font and one vacuum actuator on the back.

By vacuum canister I mean vacuum actuators.

Front vacuum actuator in picture is TCL one.

V6 throttle body with only vacuum actuator in the back is cruise control one. As mentioned above, works on opposite principle to tcl, i.e. tcl require negative pressure, cruise works on positive pressure. Actuators ain't interchangeable.

[Davezj]

Cheers tomasz that puts things right in my mind thank for the clarification.

Well as this is the case, I will see if I can remove the cruise contol vacuum actuator and spring mechanism from the n/a V6 throttle body and fit the equivalent part from the pfl throttle body. Some ofthe holes line up on the bracket, so it might work. You must be able to disassemble the spring mechanism as there are seals on the butterfly valve shaft that sometimes need replacing.
If I can do this then it will make thing much easier, as it will have all the required connections in place to make it a plug and play part.

I can but try.

[ersanalamin]

I ve done this mods sometime ago, and here's some info about it

The car is VR4 M/T
EA5A / V6 TB ID = 67 mm OD = 70 mm
EC5A TB ID = 64 mm OD = 69 mm
V6 TB has Slightly bigger inner diameter than VR4

To fit V6 TB you guys have to grind VR4 intake plenum inlet bigger to make it inline with V6 TB outlet and butterfly movement. I use die grinder to get this done. First off, buy the new V6 TB gasket and servo housing rubber seal. Use the V6 TB gasket for coloring the grinding area with permanent marker ink. Replace the V6 servo housing with VR4 Servo housing to match the original radiator hose direction. You have to buy a new servo housing rubber seal because its a pain in the ass to reuse existing rubber seal due to seal deformation. A reused servo housing rubber seal wont seat tight again.

Another pain in the ass job is fitting VR4 TB elbow into V6 TB. The elbow rubber very tight indeed. You might want a worn rubber elbow since it would be a bit lose to fit into V6 TB.

here's the picture of grinding area in blue, before and after the work to give you guys an idea what you gonna do about it