Lets think bigger turbos!

[Mante]

Didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if it sounded this way.
We just have plenty of cars here with 1JZ-GTE, 2JZ-GTE and some RB26DETT who are also going single turbo setup from twin turbo, 'cause it's easier to setup on an "inline" engine. As I was told, placing turbos closer to cylinders is essential to getting hotter exhaust gases with more velocity, hence more power can be utilized!!! With single turbo on any V shaped engine exhaust manifold will have a pretty long runners(extractors) - which is a downside!
FTOLTD sure did make a good single turbo system out of 6a13 engine, but I am sure somebody will eventually come up with at least similar or even better performing twin turbo setup! Again our engine bay is a little less space restrictive than that on a FTO. IMO... BTW can you give a link to "Buschur 20g" CMap?

Buschur 's website scroll down to the br20g. Nah you didnt offend me I was laughin when I read it. I have also heard the rumor of the runners being to long.

[valmes]

Garrett T3:

[Mante]

This by far the cleanest most impressive twin 16g setups I have ever seen, note it is on a gto/3000gt so it would just have to be reversed That setup costs about US4500.00 very powerful, if I remember upwards of 550 whp

[ako]

Just some food for thought on this whole thing.


Really, what the whole debate boils down to is "how much do you want to spend". Its that simple.

Option one - Spend up large. In this case, its quite simple (in theory) - set yourself a power target or 1/4 mile time target. Then, look at what turbo on the market is best to achieve this - bearing in mind that a turbo doesn't have to be big to make big bower, there's more to it than that. A TD-06 with a 25G compressor wheel would be the cheap option, and provide %$#@loads of flow and crack 400hp on this engine without too much trouble. I've seen a stock 16G wheel'ed TD05 crack 235kW plus on a 2 litre VR4 , the 6A13 is more than capable of exceeding that. The only tricky part of this would be finding just where the manifolding goes to - but theres a heap of room above the gearbox anyway. Buying a new tech, ball bearing cored turbo would provide both the flow, and rapid spool up (especially on a 2.5) that you'd be after, your wallet is what ultimately decides this. For ease of working on etc, a single turbo setup wins hands down.

Option two - Do it the budget conscious way. This is where the experience of many people beforehand comes into play, and you have to think "just how much power am I actually aiming for?

By my way of thinking, you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for. As an example, the 300ZX engine is a good comparison. They suffer from very similar issues as we do with our V6's - undersized turbos from the outset, and not much room to put in big upgrades anyway. Hence they stick with twins 90% of the time, normally swapping over compressor housings for parts off skylines etc. And it works a treat. A guy I talked to from up north was similar - he blew a rear turbo on his 6A12TT, so replaced both turbos with ones originally from a CA18DET silvia. They sound way too small in theory, but remember each is only being fed by 1 litre of capacity. He just re-flanged his exhaust manifolds, made up some new i/c piping, and got new coolant lines made up. Doesn't cost anywhere near as much, and still got brilliant results.

I'm just realistic about what to try and do to a car, and what should be spent. Ive seen SO many car owners spend up huge trying to make power, whereas if they just did what was actually necessary they would be making a hell of a lot more. In my eyes, a datalogger is an absolute vital, along with making sure the charge air is kept to a decent degree. It never ceases to amaze me just how little people on here actually keep the stock intercoolers - even though they aren't bad, its normally one of the first things I see modified on most turbo cars over here. Cold air is free power! Ditto for the turbos - they really are the main weak point on this engine. You can (and I have) push them really hard and still make the power, but thats because I'm on a much smaller budget than most on here. Put it this way - for under $2000 NZD I could have had a pair of decent sized turbos onto my E84A, and would have been pushing into the low 12s, in conjunction with the fuelling. Try telling me thats not value for money.

[Mante]

WEll put, hell...damn good. But please remember the differences between our galants vs the 300zx...I believe they come with twin T25's which honestly are way more powerful and boast much more potential..I can not remember the cfm's but its effective up to 220 whp @ 10-15psi on the 2.0L 4g63T...Would you like to imagine a single 6c on a 4g63T? I wouldnt lol Your right the intercooler technically should be the first thing thats upgraded...did I nope honestly it slipped my mind. Mainly because my current setup isnt going to last long..I can feel the back 6c burning oil....gut feeling haha.

All in all your 100% right, your budget dictates on how far you will go.. some peoples aspirations exceed what they will ever do.... case in point some other threads...

[valmes]

Really, what the whole debate boils down to is "how much do you want to spend". Its that simple.

I really think anyone out here wants to be sensible in terms of power vs money thing. We wouldn't be here in a first place if we could afford a Ferrari done in reputable tuning shop... would we?

your wallet is what ultimately decides this.

Your "goals" ultimately decide your wallet... errr... sorry for my English.

For ease of working on etc, a single turbo setup wins hands down.
By my way of thinking, you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for.

Why do you think a single turbo is better option? V shaped engine is better suited for twin turbo (you place them closer to cylinders, you get higher temp. and exhaust gas velocities). Also when you use twins, they are each smaller units and that should in fact help in two ways - better spool up time, smaller turbo size. Most of the quickest 1/4 Skylines GTRs (in Japan) , even though with engine configuration better suited for single turbo, use twin turbo setup and show times of less than 9 sec - 1/4 mile.

You're right - "you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for."
Don't have to go single turbo (unless you have space restrictions as in FTO case) if you can get better results with twin setup...

As an example, the 300ZX engine is a good comparison. They suffer from very similar issues as we do with our V6's - undersized turbos from the outset, and not much room to put in big upgrades anyway. Hence they stick with twins 90% of the time, normally swapping over compressor housings for parts off skylines etc. And it works a treat.

Don't think they suffer too much, since they do have (using original Garrett units) some upgrade choices and we don't!
300ZX turbo upgrade
300ZX BB turbo upgrade

...and why would you want to go single turbo (changing everything), if you can just bolt on the upgrades, is beyond me!

Put it this way - for under $2000 NZD I could have had a pair of decent sized turbos onto my E84A, and would have been pushing into the low 12s, in conjunction with the fuelling. Try telling me thats not value for money.

That's value for money! But lets be reallistic - only until some point! You can only go "that far" with keeping things stock... Well eventually you will max out on something - it could be that your injectors are not properly sized or your pump refusing to provide you with needed amount of fuel.

For that time (12.6) how many things have you changed in your car? I can only see different intercooler... what else? Great time btw!!!

What decent pair of turbos can you get for $2000NZ? What amount of air will they flow? How fast will they spool? How long will they last (assuming for that price you can only get second hand turbos - correct me if I'm wrong).

The main point I am making - in order to keep your car "road friendly" and at the same time to show better 1/4 times, you will have to find a compromise in terms effectiveness - first (spool up time, size and flow of turbos), and costs - second.

BB turbos are not adequately priced at the moment... they are too expensive with not too much power gains(compared to what they cost). They are more fragile and virtually unrepairable.

That's why (well at least for me...) Garrett T3 50/60/60S is a better all around version.

- Two turbos at prices of 600-750$ each (or you can find them rebuilt at 300$ price tag)
- Rated at 490 CFM each (on our engines capable of going up to 2.8PR in eff.range)
- Fast spooling up times (for that kind of flow)
- Durable and serviceable
- Easy to make hybrids out of these turbos, if you decide to upgrade... and chase Drag Skylines GTR
- You do your manifold once - and with T3 exhaust flanges you can upgrade to whatever you like, later on... even to BB turbos.

[ako]

By all means, go for that setup.

Reasoning behind me saying going to a big single is simple - its only one turbo to break, and a hell of a lot easier to work on if in fact something does go wrong. That said, if you do manage to cook a turbo the cars going to be off the road for a while regardless, so a few hours removing the rear one isn't much of a problem.

I've got a mate here in new zealand whos putting on a pair of ex - lancer GSR turbos onto an E84A, I think they are TD-0414Gs. Thats one per bank, and hes expecting to have a max boost spool up by around 4000 - 4500rpm, hopefully. Even though its a 2 litre engine, its still a turbo which is more at home on a 1.8L engine, reducing it to 3 ex. pulses and 1L of displacement is going to have some ramifications to driveablity and spool up times 9 times out of ten anyway. Thats why you drop back a gear

Meh, there will always be cars that prove theorys wrong. The reason I mentioned the 300zx is simply because its in a similar boat in terms of being under-turboed, the 3000GT is also the same, but just to throw a big whole in my thoughts your right, they are easily upgraded. The 3000GT still needs to get new manifolding / flanging done for any upgrades past a compressor wheel - their forums do have some bloody interesting articles on there.

At the end of the day, we're both right. Both systems have their merits, and its up to the owner which they want. Going for two large turbos could result in the same lag as a big single - whereas a properly sized single turbo could give near-stock driveablility down low, but with much more flow up top. Either way can work just fine - look at the turbo kits for the new 350Z for some examples. Some are going for medium-sized twin turbo setups, whilst others are adopting the large single approach, both (from what I've read) have very similar characteristics. It comes down to turbo sizing, tuning, all sorts of variables. The majority of older-tech turbos always have a trade off, but hopefully the extra capacity and pair of cylinders the 6A13 has over the average evo/wrx will negate the effects of a larger turbo.

The normal way of thinking says that a big single will provide a big rush that twins can't - and its absolute bollocks. If you've got the same amount of flow, the car will pull just as hard. Your right, most of the japanese big boys use twin turbo setups on the GTRs - but the world street tyred GTR record is held by on here in NZ with a BBBIIIGGG single on it. Ditto for the american supra guys, their quickest uses a big single as well. Spool up times aren't an issue on 7-8 second cars I don't think


Oh yeah, my car? Stock turbos @ 15-16psi, the evo 6.5 intercooler, no cat and a new muffler, exedy uprated clutch (got that about a year ago mante, someone told you a little white lie ), pod filter, springs and wheels. AF ratios were normally about 12:1 at the top end, never got any hints of knocking though. Must have had one of those "special" engines in it

[borgan]

Keeping the twin turbo setup on the 6a13 may be very efficient on the exhaust side of the turbo, but the there are serious flow restrictions from the air filter to the front turbo.

I would expect the air to hit a bottle neck on the plastic pipe just above the gearbox. The run from the air filter to the turbos is very long.
On twin turbo setups on Gtr's this run is very short.

Having a single turbo setup may not be efficient on the exhaust side of the turbo but the air filter to turbo intake efficiency would greatly benefit.

Blocking the inlet manifold intake on the n/s & opening up the o/s keeps the distance from the turbo through the intercooler & on to the intake as short & as direct as possible. When I first saw pictures of FTOLTD's conversion I didn't fully appreciate the thought that had gone behind it. It was only after having had a few problems with the upgraded twin setup (& the labour that goes with it!!!! ) that led me to re-visit his site, that I realised the benefits of the single setup.

Once only cost of manifold or Y branch from present manifold
Reduced heat through air filter when placed on o/s (not sited directly above gearbox)
T3 flange allowing lower cost turbo & greater choice
Reduced time to swap turbo if necessary (further upgrade or replacement)
It's been done before!!!
there are other costs but none that are extreme in price (downpipe, ic pipes, fabrication of inlet manifold intake, battery re-location, heat shield for turbo & possibly for gearbox). Fuel pump, injectors, IC etc would apply whether twin or single turbo.

Although it might be possible to use t3's on twin setup it's going to be quite tight. The present sized turbos are arkward enough to fit.

Ok so we have a V configured engine. There's going to be a compromise whether a person opts for 1 or 2 turbos. Is increasing the distance from exhaust manifold really going to make a noticable difference ? Will reducing distance from air filter to turbo negate this ? Why did Mitsubishi opt for more expensive smaller turbos when cheaper but slightly larger ones are available? I don't know the answers. Just food for thought.

I'm just providing my experience & highlighting the experience of others with our engine. It's your money & your decision. Good Luck!!!

[paulmc]

Is there such a thing as a TC03-09A? I found this on the net supposed to be on the Colt 4G32 engine but I cant find anything on it.

[valmes]

Is increasing the distance from exhaust manifold really going to make a noticable difference ?

Will reducing distance from air filter to turbo negate this?

I would expect the air to hit a bottle neck on the plastic pipe just above the gearbox. The run from the air filter to the turbos is very long.

In my way of thinking - if we have a problem (which I doubt) on intake side, why should we solve this problem in such a hard way? Why replace one problem (intake restriction) with another (long extractors/runners/single setup), instead of getting rid of it?

As I see it, our cars suffer more in getting hot air from under the hood, than anything else. So some sort of cold air intake will do more good then.

If you are so bothered by long inefficient intake pipes - change them! PROS Engineering sells this upgrade parts for EC5X

Or you can change over to MAP sensor (if you get any decent aftermarket computer) and make a split intake.... intake for each turbo, like on GTR.

Why did Mitsubishi opt for more expensive smaller turbos when cheaper but slightly larger ones are available?

More efficient low end performance? Enough to produce 280PS all the way up to the top?
Cheaper to whom? To you and me? Why would you think that it would apply the same to manufacturer? Maybe FOR Mitsubishi it was cheaper to place smaller turbos on this car, then bigger ones? Space restrictions are not an issue when you design a car... they could have easily increased couple of inches here and there, if it was worth it. Obviously it wasn't. Now we have to work around this, since Mitsubishi engineers didn't think at the time some one would want more than 280PS out of Legnum/Galant... :-D

It's your money & your decision. Good Luck!!!

Same here, I don't force my choices on anyone... just wanted to share the info, so someone with the same engine can benefit from it in one way or another.

May be our "single vs. twin" discussion will shed a light on what is more appropriate and cost effective way of upgrading our turbos. Will see... but for now I am on the "twin" side

PS: Btw, here is another option: PROS Egn/Buzz EC5X turbos upgrade

[borgan]

That intake pipe comes to around $2000 after taxes & delivery!!!! I didn't think it was value for money a year ago & I still don't now.

I think Zentac enquired about the buzz turbos - IIRC no longer available
I looked at Buzz turbos a while back - at the time the exchange rate made it very expensive (for my budget anyway).

IMHO manufacturers over compensate for fast spoolup when sizing their turbos. All stems from the criticisms of the lag on the early turbo models such as the Saab 99 turbo. Now many cars tend to come with instant boost followed by disappointment in the upper revs (for me anyway). It maybe a 260/280 hp car std, but to me it doesn't feel like one. Isn't that why so many of us are upping the boost ? Isn't that why threads such as "Let's think bigger turbos" are found in car forums everywhere?

Have you seen the price that Mitsubishi quote for a std turbo replacement ? Either they're really really greedy or the units themselves are produced in such small quantities that they really are pricey.

I could fit 2 airflow meters running more direct pipes to each turbo. It would be a lot easier if we had the same access to the maps as they do in the ZX community.

Valmes, I'm glad this thread has evolved this way. Lots of personal ideas to be seen. There are many ways to achieve the same target. All of them have pros & cons. I'm veering towards the single turbo solution & only because of personal experience in going the twin route. Too many people telling me that what I wanted to do wouldn't fit, it would cost too much etc. I think mainly from lack of appreciation & enthusiasm for the cars that we have. Thats why I prefer the tried & tested single turbo option. From the outset I can see that it can be done, put a cost to it that i know won't be exceeded & I have fair idea of what to expect power wise. If the people you're dealing with are more enthusiastic & appreciative then I'm sure that you'll overcome any obstacle & finish with a car whose performance you'll really be pleased with.

[enigma]

GT15s any good?

[zentac]

I think Zentac enquired about the buzz turbos - IIRC no longer available I looked at Buzz turbos a while back - at the time the exchange rate made it very expensive (for my budget anyway).

Yep you are correct.

[paulmc]

GT15s any good?

Yeah look pretty good 440 bhp potential, but I take it they need a custom manifold.

[paulmc]

GT15s any good?

Looks good, with 440bhp potential. I take it they will need a custom manifold

[Mante]

exedy uprated clutch (got that about a year ago mante, someone told you a little white lie

maybe your right, but as far as exedy is concerned they only have install pics of my vr4

[valmes]

They are in New Parts section of PROS ENGINEERING website...
When did you find out they were "no longer available"?
Next week I will try to find out if they are still available and what those turbos are capable of...

[valmes]

GT15s any good?

Too small.

GT15-25

Garrett GT15 compact turbocharger is designed for today's small displacement engines. Based on the well-know T2 design, The GT15 family is engineered to provide an economic perfomance boost for small displacement diesel and gasoline engines in passenger cars, light duty trucks and marine applications.

The GT15's application range is for 1.3 to 1.6 liter ( 60 - 80 bhp ) diesel engines and 1.0 to 1.4 liter (85 - 120 bhp ) gasiline engines. The compact packaging makes the GT family ideally suited for twin turbo applications on V-block engines. The GT25, at the high end of the range, can be configurated to match gasoline engines ratings up to 210 hp. The GT17, GT20 and GT22 fill in the flow ranges between the GT15 and GT25.

The Garrett VNT15 ( Now GT17V ) turbocharger is currently featured on the VW 1.9 TDI engine, among others.

info taken from here

[valmes]

Who wanted to go single turbo?

Here is a single turbo kit for 6a12 engine. I think it can be used on 6a13 too...

6A12 Galant Turbo Kit

[Mante]

Who wanted to go single turbo?

Here is a single turbo kit for 6a12 engine. I think it can be used on 6a13 too...

6A12 Galant Turbo Kit

single turbo would be me.... and looking at that package a single T25, well thats honestly less then what the 6a13 comes with. The T25 comes standard on the 2nd gen eclipse here in the US max of 220whp on a 2.0L 4g63 plainly put pretty pitiful. That same package with the br20g that I mentioned before would produce a "modest" 450 whp on the same 2L motor. That 6a12 is the mivec motor I really want, that in my opinion would be a better base to force induct vs our 6a13. The addition of Mivec means the use of a larger turbo without needing nitrous...thats another story.


Here in the states the maxima owners upgrade to the twin T25's that come stock on the 300zx, another idea I was thinking about was the Garett Super 60 being able to flow 500 CFM's each means alot of room to play with.

Yes I agree GT15's are as small if not smaller then our stock td03-6c's the only upgrades with less stress are the ones available for the 3000gt/GTO...they are the 13g, 15g or the super 60 TD04HL...ironically they flow the same CFM's as the GT28 but the super 60 are way more expensive...

When the time comes for someone to actually make steps and purchase a setup, then we can see what actually works...vs what doesnt instead of all the babble of what we think will and wont work. Getting a firm idea is one thing but to try to get a fail safe method without trail and error will get us (as a forum as a whole) nowhere....fast..