Question for AMSoil (Don) AYC pump and super shift ATF?

[Davezj]

This I a general question for @amsoil Don.
could you use super shift ATF in the AYC pump.
i was wondering if you had a failing AYC pump and you used the super shift ATF would it help with building the pressure.

I know it is a bit of an odd question, I was just wondering.
it is not something I have tried, and I am Not going to as I have just replaced my AYC pump, just idol curiosity.

[elnevio]

Good question. I know Amsoil is good, but is it good enough to stave off the switch (or pump!) replacement?

[Davezj]

I did get this response fron don regarding the super shift ATF and using it in one of our vr4 auto box.
See link for comments.
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...uestion+AMSoil

The super shift ATF looks like it is really designed for drag racing applications and really hash working conditions, but an AYC pump I would have though would be quite a harsh environment. Not sure how the viscosity differs from from the standard ATF.

[amsoil]

You need to understand what ATF is and how it works to understand the answer.
ATF is simply a hydraulic fluid with some lubricating properties that is designed to work and survive in a hot environment where its required to allow lubricated clutches to operate with a given coefficient of friction. Old Auto boxes have a wide operating band and newer one a much narrower. Tiptronic being the narrowest of all. To get the narrow band, and this is also over a varying temperature range, requires a high spec fluid, the longevity is also a measure of quality and design which is why the synthetics which are created for the job are the best.
Now the Supershift is a High quality synthetic ATF but has not only a very narrow band but causes a higher coefficient of friction. As such it makes faster changes with negligible slip for faster times down the strip of track. The changes are therefore much harsher and not at all pleasant in a road car.
Now pump failure is usually because of wear (crap/overly old fluid) or scoring of the surfaces (crap/overly old fluid or debris/contamination) Given this you would need a thicker fluid to counteract the pressure loss caused by the lack of sealing in the pump. All these ATF's however are very similar in viscosity. Its the frictional properties that are the difference not the thickness, so no I cannot see how any other ATF would help a 'tired' pump. Hopefully the words above lead to the answer and you can also understand why.

[Davezj]

Thank you don yet again,
That a brilliant answer, well it had to be for me to understand it.

Makes sense when explain it in simple term, thanks.

So am I right in thinking,
In the pump ATF is working like a hydraulic fluid just activating and deactiving the clutches in the diff , it is the ATF in the clutch packs that is doing the friction hook up. But in the pump it must be churning the ATF, pumping it round and round the loop from pump to resovoir, chomping off bits of atf from the loop to keep the accumulated pressurised when it is needed, a good quality ATF is needed in the pump as well as the diff.

[amsoil]

Sort of. but a bit the other way around, the clutch pack will grip but wont last without lubrication (ie ATF) to remove heat etc. The ATF has properties that allow a certain needed co efficient of friction to be maintained whilst still cooling and lubricating. Any ATF will do this. The quality is desirable so that the ATF will last and not deteriorated to the point that it no longer does the job required; this is when problems arise. Auto boxes are different and modern ones require a narrow band of frictional values only obtainable by special ATF's. So either a good quality ATF in the pump or one that you will change before deterioration.

[Davezj]

nice one don.

[Nick Mann]

So going from what you have said above, and looking for ways of cheating the system:

As the AYC pump side of things is just a hydraulic system, any hydraulic oil should do the job? (The clutch packs are in a completely seperate fluid system, where obviously the friction coefficient you mentioned above is imperative.) And therefore is there a thicker hydraulic oil than ATF? Potentially a thicker hydraulic oil could mask pump issues for a bit longer whilst keeping operating pressures normal? Our current "cheat the system" involves an adjustable pressure switch so the pump doesn't work so hard as it gets old/wears.

[amsoil]

If the 2 systems are separate then yes a thicker hydraulic oil would quite possibly extend the use of the pump. The nearest is ATH (which we keep in stock http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/...chevrolet.html , the ATF is here for comparison http://www.performanceoilsltd.co.uk/...ion_fluid.html
No guarantees here though

[Davezj]

That is interesting though, I have my old AYC pump that can't give full pressure any more which is why I swapped it out. So I could try the ATH in that.
I would need to get a pressure gauge 300psi ish and an adapter to converting threads sizes then a couple of bolts with the correct thread on them to block up the pump outputs.
I could then run the pump with normal ATF then run it with ATH, to see what the difference is.

I have been doing a bit of background reading on refurbing AYC pumps and it is possible, if the corrosion is not too bad on them.
This leads me to another point why don't we protect the pump from all the water, salt, spray from the roads to stop the corrosion occurring on the first place.
It seems as though it is the corrosion that makes the pump fail in the majority of cases in the first pace. So stopping the corrosion could mean minimal pump fails.

[Davezj]

I have had another thought on the subject of super shift ATF.

What would happen if you used the super shift in the ATF side (AYC clutch pak) of the rear diff?

From what don has said I would assume the torque transfer would be more grabby, I am resisting the urge to say better, due the the fact I don 't know if more grabby is better, it might just make he operation of the AYC side ofthe diff jerky on torque transfer which would probably not be good.

T I am willing o test this theory. As I have a litre of the supper shift ATF a I had to buy something else to get the free postage on my last order.

My question would now be,
Do you think it would cause any damage to the AYC diff if I use this super shift ATF in it?

What would you do to test the change in the torque transfer.?

As a prompter on this topic I could put the car up on axle stands so he wheels can turn, with engine running and in D, turn the steering full anti clockwise to simulate a left hand turn, and then try and stop the rear right wheel from turning with gloved hands.
I am presuming the max torque will be transferd to the outside wheel in a turn, and as that wheel will have more simulated grip the max torque should be applied to that wheel.
I could then try and get a feel for the effort required to stop the wheel from spinning. Not exactly scientific I know but not sure what else I could do.
Then change the ATF in the diff to the super shift and repeat the above proceedure and see if it more difficult to stop the wheel.

I am just thinking out loud, and I probable do to much of that, but hey that what I do.

All thoughts and info gratefully received
@amsoil @Nick Mann

[Nick Mann]

You are a nutter!

Assuming you do put it in your diff then I think the only sensible way of measuring the improvement would be the bum dyno.

Friction differences on the drive train usually give erratic ayc activation when the car is in the air.

[Davezj]

As soon as my mot is out of the way I will give it go.

[chris g]

According to prev threads, comments by my forum buddy Brad, it is the AYC working itself that leads to deterioration...

So the more you have the green lights showing the more the pump works and quicker it wears out and then fails...

Protecting it from weather, elements and under-car gunge does not prevent pump failure...

At least that is what Brad was explaining...

I would still like to prevent the pumps exposure to dirt and water whatever caused eventual failure

[Davezj]

According to prev threads, comments by my forum buddy Brad, it is the AYC working itself that leads to deterioration...

So the more you have the green lights showing the more the pump works and quicker it wears out and then fails...

Protecting it from weather, elements and under-car gunge does not prevent pump failure...



At least that is what Brad was explaining...

I would still like to prevent the pumps exposure to dirt and water whatever caused eventual failure

From what I have seen and read it is supposed to be galvanic corrosion which is 2 different metals with a fluid connecting them will have a small current flowing all the time which will cause corrosion on the inside of the pump, the corrosion from the outside can eat into the seals and cause some issues when you try and take the pump apart to primeraly change the plate that sits between the pump body and the pressure accumulator end of he pump.
The metal involved are steel and aluminum, the motor is steel, the pump body is ally, the plate is steel, the pressure accumulator end of the pump is ally, pressure accumulator is steel.
Not sure what mitsubishi were thinking of when the designed this pump. Probably cheaper to do this.

Well that is what i have come to believe the corrosion issue is.

[Davezj]

You are a nutter!

Assuming you do put it in your diff then I think the only sensible way of measuring the improvement would be the bum dyno.

Friction differences on the drive train usually give erratic ayc activation when the car is in the air.

Took me while to work out how a dyno would prove anything, but I presume you mean I should get a change in the torque delivered by the engine.
I could do with doing another dyno run or 2 after my MOT. To find out if my other tinkering have helped.

[SEAN-NZ]

Took me while to work out how a dyno would prove anything, but I presume you mean I should get a change in the torque delivered by the engine.
I could do with doing another dyno run or 2 after my MOT. To find out if my other tinkering have helped.

looks like he meant to see what its like on the street? when he said bum dyno

[Davezj]

looks like he meant to see what its like on the street? when he said bum dyno

I see, thanks for the clarification.
I suppose it would be good to drive a car with S-AYC to see what the difference feels like with extra torque transfer in the rear diff. It is supposed to be about 30% more. Then I can make a better judgement if it has made a difference.
I do also understand that the standard AYC diff is not meant to handle any extra torque than is factory supplied. So I might end up breaking it at some point.

[wintertidenz]

Brad C was running a standard AYC diff with his purple VR-4 with no issues, and then he swapped across to a S-AYC only because he wanted the extra torque transfer, not because he blew it up.

[Davezj]

I don't quite see where this is going, you have notostef on this thread before and you state some stuff that if anybody reads it that is not you makes no sense.
Throw me bone, give me a chance to know what you are saying