Is there any benefit of running 6 coil packs instead of normal 3?

[Davezj]

This has probably been asked before but I can't seem to find it.

What do you think, is there any benefit to running a coil on every plug.

I am not talking about changing all the coils but adding 3 stock vr4 coils.
you would have to blank off the second output from the col pack, as the only plug firing off the oil pack would be the one under the coil pack.
the output of the coil pack would be driving it's voltage into a different load, as there is only one plug being driven.
I think it will all depend on how the coil pack output is con figured. Is there just one output from the oil pack which is connect to both spark plug at the same time, or are there two individual outputs from the oil pack, basically two driver circuits in each coil pack.

[swinks]

Wouldn't be easier to use single coils from GDI engines?

I think there may be some issues to solve in wiring harness and ecu. Each coil is driven by ecu separately from ecu, 3 outputs. You will need 6 separate signals. Standalone or advanced piggyback system must be involved IMO.

[horndog]

There is a GB on OzVR4 I remember seeing, for a 6 coil pack setup, but i didnt see any justification for it


Edit GB http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.p...it-for-the-VR4
Reason http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.p...up-for-the-VR4

[Rabit]

There is a GB on OzVR4 I remember seeing, for a 6 coil pack setup, but i didnt see any justification for it


Edit http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.p...it-for-the-VR4

I have just fitted one of these to my car and the difference is marked. With your colder climate you may not have the same problems we have here in OZ, with Coils braking down causing misfires and generally shortening plug life especially when the boost is raised. With Christians COP setup you still have a waisted spark because all he has done is get rid of the plug lead to the rear cylinders and replace it with another coil and piggyback the 2 coils together with a custom loom. With this setup you have the full spark reaching the plug which ensures that all the fuel is burnt because you have a nice fat spark and that helps with fuel economy, plug life and power.

[veegeeta]

^ as said above also better spark delivery for higher boost. I also run the coil on plug set up. he does a good job on these. Got a spare $1000 aussie you could have one too.

[Badger_01]

lol so just over 650GBP if Im correct

[Davezj]

Some interesting thought on the subject.

My concept was to use 3 extra vr4 coil pack that I have in he shed as spares, and keeping the wasted spark configuration, and drive the 6 coil packs in pairs. I can do this at a cost of zero to me as I have all the stuff I need to do this. And piggy backing the second coil pack off the first and wiring in to the same trigger signal is easily doable.
I just wondered if the vr4 coil packs could be used like this, in pairs, and see an advantage be it economy through a full complete fuel burn of the fuel or a slight power advantage through a full complete fuel burn or emissions through a full complete fuel burn, or a mix of all 3.
I was just a little unsure if the secondary spark of a vr4 coil pack could just be capped off with a insulating sealant, so all the power output of the coil pack would be channeled into the one plug to make the single spark stronger.

[CANDEE]

I think the issue with the std ones might be fitting them under the intake manifold. Also securing them might be an issue on the back as well.

I know that Christian has to make mounting plates for the other coils and they only "just" fit under the factory intake manifold.

[Davezj]

I see,
I have been trawling through the reason thread linked above, and it is 21 pages of sketchy info. I understand that choices have been made as to the coil pack due to hight profile that have been used, and the benefit only become apparent if and when the boost gets high to ensure the ignition system is not the weak link in the combustion system.

I will have to try the stock vr4 coil pack under the inlet manifold next time I have it off to do a plug inspection and leak down test. Which should not be too far away.

[swinks]

To be honest... value vs. money factor says to me "not worth".
Wise choice of plugs and leads will have similar benefit. If you check Yahoo Japan auctions you will notice quite few NGK performance sets.

[Davezj]

This was my whole point of starting this thread, to get different people opinion on this subject.

Some say yes, some say no.
I was only thinking of this as I have all the bits to try it if he standard vr4 coil packs fit under the plenum chamber, holding hem in postion is easy enough I have ally plate that I can use to hold them in position.
Do the bolt holding the coil pack in place create the ground path for any of the circuits?
Obviously not the spark ground path as that is via the engine block. And there are 12v feed and ground wires plus a fire signal wire going to the coil pack. The bolts actually go through the laminated core of what looks like a transformer which must be used to step up the voltage, or something like that.

[The Vee]

Interesting thread Dave. Had very similar thoughts in the past as I also have coil packs lying around. (And I just like fiddling!!) If you do it I'd love to hear the results, as I somewhat dismissed it for a couple of reasons. I was worried the dwell might not be long enough to charge two off the same feed and also the trigger with a dual load may alter the timing slightly or even overload the ECU. Never tried it, so my reasoning maybe total Bo!!ox. TBH never got as far as looking at the clearance under the plenum as mentioned above.

[kc427]

My friend has a WRX GC8, which has similar set up as our VR4 but 4 cyc with 2 coils. He has got 4 coils from WRX GDB, and rewiring to drive 4 coils for 4 cyc. He said it was noticeable, and felt the gas pedal was lighter, especially when low end torque.

[Rabit]

Here is a picture of the COP setup on the front bank of my engine. The rear bank is similar but differs in detail. The cost of the setup is very reasonable when you take into account what the coils cost, then there is having the plates made and the wiring loom and the labour. It all works out to be quite a bargain.phpCqoBmQAM.jpgThe stock engine cover still fits with a bit of a wiggle.

[Davezj]

Here is a picture of the COP setup on the front bank of my engine. The rear bank is similar but differs in detail. The cost of the setup is very reasonable when you take into account what the coils cost, then there is having the plates made and the wiring loom and the labour. It all works out to be quite a bargain.phpCqoBmQAM.jpgThe stock engine cover still fits with a bit of a wiggle.

Cheers for the pics, it allows people to see what we revtalking about.
By the way, was your set about $700 AUS.

[Davezj]

Interesting thread Dave. Had very similar thoughts in the past as I also have coil packs lying around. (And I just like fiddling!!) If you do it I'd love to hear the results, as I somewhat dismissed it for a couple of reasons. I was worried the dwell might not be long enough to charge two off the same feed and also the trigger with a dual load may alter the timing slightly or even overload the ECU. Never tried it, so my reasoning maybe total Bo!!ox. TBH never got as far as looking at the clearance under the plenum as mentioned above.

You have raised some other thing I was considering in the back of my mined. I did consider making a set of 3 FET interface to he second set of coil pack to combat any extra current draw or increased load, just using the original firing signal to drive the original coil pack and trigger the FET to switch and fire the second coil pack. There should not be a any timing issues with switch the FET as they are designed to switch very quickly.

But first off I would have to measure the current draw on the original coil pack to see if it is remotely high, then check what sort of driver is used in the ecu. To see if is like to handle the extra load if I was to connect the second coil pack directly.

[veegeeta]

Dave price was around the $770 mark before when I got mine, they then had a price rise now its around the $1000 mark.

[Rabit]

Mine cost me $900.00 Aus. When Christian was selling them for $770.00 Aus. he had made an accounting error and was selling them at a loss. Value for money and bang for your buck is still there in spades. The stock ignition system cannot handle boost pressure much above stock without breaking down. In my opinion this is caused by high under bonnet temperatures and ageing components.

[Rabit]

You have raised some other thing I was considering in the back of my mined. I did consider making a set of 3 FET interface to he second set of coil pack to combat any extra current draw or increased load, just using the original firing signal to drive the original coil pack and trigger the FET to switch and fire the second coil pack. There should not be a any timing issues with switch the FET as they are designed to switch very quickly.

But first off I would have to measure the current draw on the original coil pack to see if it is remotely high, then check what sort of driver is used in the ecu. To see if is like to handle the extra load if I was to connect the second coil pack directly.

My car uses what amounts to a 'Double adaptor' to connect the 2 coils. No one who has fitted one of these kits has had a problem with any other part of the ignition system, so current drain isn't a problem. I think that the KISS principle should apply. This is not a new solution to a problem but has been around for a while and is tested in the real world.

[naughtika]

thought I'd chime in..

so far all of the 20 or so sets that I've sold, I've had no comments about them causing issues with their car.. whether it was tuned or not..

also I've tested using non-genuine Denso Coils and they've only lasted me exactly 6 months (was used on my lancer 1.8 sohc)

ill just summarize the Pros and Cons of using these setup that had been reported to me..

Ignition system still is a "wasted spark" system and always will be, unless you use aftermarket ecu and use individual trigger/signal to each coil (more hella expensive)

Pros
- smoother idling
- quicker start up
- better fuel economy
- better acceleration all the way through the rev range
- extend's the spark plug's life
- beneficial when raising the boost (15psi+) I think Kenneth is doing 25psi / TME_Steve is doing 20psi or so..
- if ever 1 coil fails.. only 1 cylinder is affected - which makes the car still drivable, enough to get you home to have it sorted

Cons
- Price Tag

also just to note, the rear plate can now be mounted properly..

few pics of the setup..





and the current set that I've just completed


*note*

Im not saying that you should join in too.. as I agree as well its hella expensive.. when I first bought my coil the price was only literally 50% of the cost that I now buy them for.. We initially had about 30 guys wanting a kit but when I inquired to order 30+ the priced then doubled, they insisted on using non genuine Denso Coils.. I said no thanks