350bhp on stock turbos?

[swinks]

What was you vr4 doing when you had the 262 cams, 6 cylinders and the meth injection.
Or was it bum dyno compared to what you had before.

Whith cams fitted I did a dyno runs soon after. Unfortunately, on very beginning of dyno run, cylinder #1 spark plug had blown (ceramic insulator gone) and this cylinder lost compression. But still vr4 made good 267 HP ATW on remained 5 cylinders with some massive smoke and bangs from a tailpipe
Meth injection was switched off at that time because it may foul some readings, and we didn't get to a fine tune mode due to spark blown issue.

Regarding 350 mark figure.
There is one and general rule.
Before any mods to setup you have to get very fine flat healthy afr reading. Flat 10's on a engine load. Any readings bouncing like EEG will get you nowhere.
In other words getting healthy baseline is "a must".

[fassi1]

What's the benefit from going in to 10's from lets say 11.5 with bost levels 1-1.1bar?

[swinks]

What's the benefit from going in to 10's from lets say 11.5 with bost levels 1-1.1bar?

Simply.
If you can't get 9.8-10.1 flat line in stock setting then it's something wrong with your engine.
Once you get this figure, you can play with fuelling etc.
But sequence should be:
- 1st stage: mechanical changes and mods with keeping stock afr base line. Achieving rise of powah and torque with stock settings.
- 2nd stage: change in fuelling, timing, other values in ecu, etc. Further rise of power and torque.

Boost levels. That's something like turbo flow chart. TD03-7T was even here somwhere. Hope I don't need to explain you what "flow chart" stands for.

I'm sorry I need to explain you basics I was convinced that you know all this stuff.

[fassi1]

The only benefit is that your fuel pump can produce enough pressure for higher boost when more fuel will be needed, nothing else.
Stock AFR base lines are rubbish. Running 10.1 - 9.8 gets you nowhere at boost levels 1 - 1.1bar with supporting intake and exhaust mods.

[Davezj]

Regarding 350 mark figure.
There is one and general rule.
Before any mods to setup you have to get very fine flat healthy afr reading. Flat 10's on a engine load. Any readings bouncing like EEG will get you nowhere.
In other words getting healthy baseline is "a must".

as an aside, you have to careful saying you need a flat 10 on the AFR, as some dyno operators (area 52) will not show AFR below 10 as this is regarded far to rich and you don't want to be in that area like @adaxo adams car was on the recent Rolling road day and e thought that his afr was really stable but it was the graphing peramiter reaching end of there allowable ploting scale. So on the ploted graph it looks like you have a flat 10 afr when you really have 9.0 - 10 afr.
but i get what you are saying Tomasz, once you have a stable afr you can then move the afr desired value to more like 11.5-12 afr, as i believe the max power on petrol is made at 12.5 afr and you should stay on the concervative side of that figure.

[swinks]

The only benefit is that your fuel pump can produce enough pressure for higher boost when more fuel will be needed, nothing else.
Stock AFR base lines are rubbish. Running 10.1 - 9.8 gets you nowhere at boost levels 1 - 1.1bar with supporting intake and exhaust mods.

Kris, please read twice or maybe three times again what I was saying please befor posting here.
I tired after long shift at work, and really trying hard not to be rude.
BASELINE for modification is a key word.
Renown tuner workshops simply refuse to do any work if you haven't got mentioned baseline.

[swinks]

as an aside, you have to careful saying you need a flat 10 on the AFR, as some dyno operators (area 52) will not show AFR below 10 as this is regarded far to rich and you don't want to be in that area like @adaxo adams car was on the recent Rolling road day and e thought that his afr was really stable but it was the graphing peramiter reaching en of there allowable ploting scale. So on the ploted graph it looks like you have a flat 10 afr when you really have 9.0 - 10 afr.
but i get what you are saying Tomasz, once you have a stable afr you can then move the afr desired value to more like 11.5-12 afr, as i believe the max power on petrol is made at 12.5 afr and you should stay on the concervative side of that figure.

Correct Dave.
Good dyno and tune workshops deal with this. You have a good example of Eurospec. They read up to 7:1.

[fassi1]

BASELINE for modification is a key word.

If only a BASELINE I'll have to agree with that.

[lateshow]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

[Nick Mann]

Very good power, amazing torque! I have seen 500Nm a few times, you have achieved over 400lbft!

[lateshow]

That is E85 speaking! And you can sense the power!

[fassi1]

Very nice figure. Shame that over 4000rpm boost starts drooping and at 5000rpm is already 1bar.

[lateshow]

Very nice figure. Shame that over 4000rpm boost starts drooping and at 5000rpm is already 1bar.

And there's nothing that can be done. Better pipework etc. will have only a small effect. What we need is td04-13t turbos, which i'll hopefully get soon

[fassi1]

And there's nothing that can be done. Better pipework etc. will have only a small effect. What we need is td04-13t turbos, which i'll hopefully get soon

Truth, td04-13t will definitely make big improvement. Do you still have stock pre turbo air intake?
Since I have added 60mm air ducting pre air box, running 1.2bar, I can still hold 1.2bar at 5000rpm and just over 1bar at 6500rpm having lower vacuum levels pre turbo than before when boost would drop mora than that.

[Davezj]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

that boost curve looks familier, from my last RR day mine was very simila, but i made noware near the power you did just under 300hp at the fly wheel.

is your figure at the fly wheel or at the wheels?

is yours a manual or auto?

was the correction for power train factored into the 260KW?


sorry for the questions, i just want to get my head round how far off i am.

[lateshow]

The car that was dynoed has stock air intake. Would be hard to believe that intake made such a big difference. Fassi1 What is your intake like? Pictures?

The car made a little over 203,X kW ATW and then dyno dynamics calculated the losses and said it was about 260kW at the flywheel. The car is a manual. Actually not my car. Reasons for big power and torque are bigger advance and leaner mixture than on gasoline. E85 simply rules. The same car made about 300 hp at the flywheel couple of years ago on hot day with about same boost settings and gasoline.

[fassi1]

My intake from air box to turbos is standard, I only added extra ducting to the snorkel, pictures and test results are here
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...ts-to-it/page3
The result are: boost comes up quicker and is held for much longer. I can't tell what is the power gain cause I haven;'t tested it.
I've only tested vacuum levels at some points. I'm definitely gonna do rr test at some point this year, hopefully testing it with and without extra ducting just to see the difference.

[Davezj]

The car that was dynoed has stock air intake. Would be hard to believe that intake made such a big difference. Fassi1 What is your intake like? Pictures?

The car made a little over 203,X kW ATW and then dyno dynamics calculated the losses and said it was about 260kW at the flywheel. The car is a manual. Actually not my car. Reasons for big power and torque are bigger advance and leaner mixture than on gasoline. E85 simply rules. The same car made about 300 hp at the flywheel couple of years ago on hot day with about same boost settings and gasoline.

cheers Lauri that great info.
translate into bhp, 203 Kw is a little over 272bhp at the wheels, which is great.
the power train calc works out to be a under the normal 24% loss which sound about right as the 24% loss is not applicable the higher the power figure is, this percentage loss figure must reduce, as you would not say a 1000 hp car with this power train will have a 240bhp loss through it. so all sound good with figures.

i must get my finger out and try some tuning options. to get some more grin factor.
i would have thought i should be able to get to about 230-240hp at the wheels before next RR Day which will be nice, i have lots to do.

[Twpsin]

The most I have seen on stock turbos with stock internals was 340 I think.... BUT this was a very low milage engine, and when it came back a couple of years later, it had lost a good 25-30bhp. It had a really nice exhaust and downpipes (hayward and scott), panel filters, maf removed, intercooler, and ecu.

The turbos are just pants above 1bar, but then if you can cool the charge sufficiently (meth) then you should be able to do it.

As Gowf said my car did loose a few horses thought to be a problem with the turbos but the car is still running strong. Below hopefully is a link the the graphs

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...ec-ECU-Success

The car is standard apart from, 3" exhaust system, vispec ECU, air filter and uprated brakes

[Gowf]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

They are pretty nice figures. I achieved 680nm before we stopped going any further with it as i was unsure on the bottom end taking more than 500lbft. I also ran mine on 109 octane to find the true afr sweetspot. What was found was that above around 11.5 it made very little difference to the output, the biggest problem was that there just wasn't enough air getting in to the engine due to the very conservative stock cams. In general though a lambda value of 0.88-0.91 will give you maximum power, which is contrary to what you would believe if you look into the chemistry behind it. Unfortunately the thermodynamic behavior of a conventional spark ignition ICE adds far more complexity, and is not a fixed volume/temperature reaction vessel.