Looking to possibly invest in a Vr-4, but I have some questions.

[J18A]

Hello! It's great to see such a community like this one! For years now, I've always loved the idea of getting a Vr-4, whether that's a Legnum or a Galant. One of the main reasons for that is simply due to the fact that I truly enjoy the idea of owning and enjoying something that others don't have an idea about! Who doesn't want a great looking saloon/sedan or an estate that has a power figure in excess of 260bhp, right? I've been browsing around this forum for a few days now, only to notice that the 6A13TT can't exactly squeeze out too much power after modifications. Of course, I'd be willing to put some money down for modifications, but are they really worth doing for a minor gain? Are these engines capable of making 400-500bhp? You may wonder why I'd want that sort of power output, and really, as silly as it may seem, the idea of having more power is always great even if you don't necessarily use it. If your answer is 'yes' to my power output question, then how much would these modifications actually cost and are they feasible to do on this car? Furthermore, how reliable are Vr4's? I've heard the N/A ones are decent, but I've heard that if something goes wrong, it could be heavy on the pocket to put it right again. So really, is it even worth getting?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

AJ

[TAR]

Hi and welcome to the club.

Last question answer first - DEFINITELY. You are asking a bunch of people who own and love our cars whether we think they are worth having!

You can get good power if you are willing to spend money. There was a car on here pushing 450 BHP on standard internals but it was one of the first and cost the owner many thousands of pounds to achieve.

Mild to medium gains up to around 325BHP can be had with more modest modifications.

Being 4wd it gets off the line very quickly so is a great traffic light drag car. The auto is unbeatable in this respect.

Service parts are relatively easy to come by and there is a ton of knowledge on here and we are a very friendly bunch.

The fun in tuning these is finding novel ways to use alternative parts to attain your desired result.

Reliability is fine if the car is looked after and serviced regularly.

If you don't want to part with any money for servicing or are concerned by how often you need to fill the tank, steer clear.

[J18A]

Thanks for the reply, Tar! How much would it roughly cost to reach 325BHP? Well, isn't the auto unreliable in the sense that their gearboxes are weak? Is there any way to obtain a stronger gearbox? What's the top end like on these things?

[giblet]

Welcome to the club. Whereabouts in the country are you?

[J18A]

Welcome to the club. Whereabouts in the country are you?

Thanks! I'm in the north west region of London. What's your insight on this?

[foxdie]

Hi @J18A,

Tim ( @TAR ) is right, 325 HP (and more importantly, 350+ Ft/Lbs torque) is certainly possible with a few mods;

• Free-er flowing exhaust (certainly a de-cat, cat-back exhaust recommended too, custom downpipes if you wanna go further)
• Fuel delivery upgrades (Walbro GSS342 fuel pump for Mitsubishi + Fuel pressure regulator + The correct fuel rail adapter)
• Intercooler upgrades (this appears to be a nice kit)

Once you've done those, you'll need the car tuning. There are a few members who can do this (I'm one of them and based in the West Midlands, @Davezj in the Manchester area, @Eurospec in Guildford is a professional company that do it) and naturally with anything is only as good as the car being tuned (needs to be healthy).

Hope this helps.

[giblet]

Thanks! I'm in the north west region of London. What's your insight on this?

I agree with the posts by Tar and Foxdie. I'm on my 3rd VR4 at the moment, not a lot else out there that offers the same performance and looks combined with rarity.

My car is running a bigger intercooler, colder plugs, bigger downpipe and decat mated to stock rear section and backbox along with a off the shelf map supplied by a fellow forum member which was then tweaked accordingly. AFR was monitored during this as I had a gauge fitted as well. I've had my car converted to LPG as it drops the fuelling costs by more than half.

All in all a cracking all round car which can handle all weather conditions.

[J18A]

Hi @J18A,

Tim ( @TAR ) is right, 325 HP (and more importantly, 350+ Ft/Lbs torque) is certainly possible with a few mods;

• Free-er flowing exhaust (certainly a de-cat, cat-back exhaust recommended too, custom downpipes if you wanna go further)
• Fuel delivery upgrades (Walbro GSS342 fuel pump for Mitsubishi + Fuel pressure regulator + The correct fuel rail adapter)
• Intercooler upgrades (this appears to be a nice kit)

Once you've done those, you'll need the car tuning. There are a few members who can do this (I'm one of them and based in the West Midlands, @Davezj in the Manchester area, @Eurospec in Guildford is a professional company that do it) and naturally with anything is only as good as the car being tuned (needs to be healthy).

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the response! So all in all you're looking at around £350 for parts and tuning? How much would the tuning cost? Now would be a good time to state that I'm more design orientated rather than someone who has mechanical knowledge. In fact, I have very little. How much of a labour charge would I incur?
Just for knowledge's sake, what spec are and/or were you running?

I agree with the posts by Tar and Foxdie. I'm on my 3rd VR4 at the moment, not a lot else out there that offers the same performance and looks combined with rarity.

My car is running a bigger intercooler, colder plugs, bigger downpipe and decat mated to stock rear section and backbox along with a off the shelf map supplied by a fellow forum member which was then tweaked accordingly. AFR was monitored during this as I had a gauge fitted as well. I've had my car converted to LPG as it drops the fuelling costs by more than half.

All in all a cracking all round car which can handle all weather conditions.

Your 3rd one? Did they all last for a prolonged period of time? And how much power are you running? What sort of performance effect does LPG seem to have on the car and how much did the conversion cost?

--

Thanks in advance,

AJ

[J18A]

I've replied but my post is waiting for a moderator's approval .

[giblet]

Went in for my MOT a few weeks ago and the garage had a 1999 Audi S4 in for some work. Same age as my car, similar set up with a V6 twin turbo and awd but the Audi looked way more dated. The styling of the VR4 is what has kept it look so unique and aggressive. In my several years of owning a VR4 I've only ever seen a handful of other ones on the road.

[J18A]

Went in for my MOT a few weeks ago and the garage had a 1999 Audi S4 in for some work. Same age as my car, similar set up with a V6 twin turbo and awd but the Audi looked way more dated. The styling of the VR4 is what has kept it look so unique and aggressive. In my several years of owning a VR4 I've only ever seen a handful of other ones on the road.

That's really good to hear! Have you by any chance come across my questions above, or is this in reply to that?

Thanks!

[foxdie]

Thank you for the response! So all in all you're looking at around £350 for parts and tuning? How much would the tuning cost? Now would be a good time to state that I'm more design orientated rather than someone who has mechanical knowledge. In fact, I have very little. How much of a labour charge would I incur?
Just for knowledge's sake, what spec are and/or were you running?

I'm also on my third VR-4, it's just the way things work. My first one wasn't anything special, it had an electronic boost controller but was limited by fuel cut (0.8~ bar) and made about 290 HP with just a de-cat.

My second one I went to town on, all the mods above plus good NGK plugs and custom-built downpipes, I tuned that up to a dyno proven 340 HP and 380 Ft/Lbs of torque. It was quite the animal;





By that point the turbos were definitely at their limits and would cause oil overheating if run at high boost for extended periods of time (it was mainly built as a dyno shootout car), it's why I ended up adding switchable maps.

Since then I've seen 400 ft/lbs squeezed out of the turbos (but roughly the same power) but that was boosting to unsafe levels (I think it peaked at 1.6 bar, I personally feel 1.3 is the safe point), going beyond these figures would require better turbos / ignition mods / uprated head bolts etc.

@Gowf built SWOC, a 450 HP monster with TD-04s but he was breaking half shafts on a regular basis from all the torque it was making. It also had larger injectors and an aftermarket engine ECU.

I also vaguely remember reading that 500+ was achieved by a guy in Russia (can't remember his name) but by that point he was starting to see crank walk (at this point a forged engine would definitely be required, I would recommend anything after Gowfs levels of power would require forging and definitely stronger transmission parts.

As for tuning, my prices are here. You'll need a facelift ECU if you want switcheable maps, anti-lag and/or CEL-on-knock. I will have one (or perhaps two) for sale soon, keep your eyes peeled on the UK Parts Section.

Ps. I highly recommend you consider membership, see the link in my signature

[giblet]

That's really good to hear! Have you by any chance come across my questions above, or is this in reply to that?

Thanks!

Sorry, your post wasn't showing at the time.

Your 3rd one? Did they all last for a prolonged period of time? And how much power are you running? What sort of performance effect does LPG seem to have on the car and how much did the conversion cost?

The cars do last, I just have a stupid habit of changing vehicles far too often. Saying that I've kept the current one for nearly two years. I've not had the car on a dyno yet but I'm hoping to get a run soon, expecting to be close to 300bhp.

LPG hasn't had any affect on the performance, it was converted by a fellow member who knows his onions when it comes to LPG and was mapped by him too. His Legnum is on LPG and puts out the same power on both petrol and gas. I spent £1200 on my conversion with a 60 litre tank in the boot. It was converted in summer last year and I've had no issues since it was done. Range is around 190-240 miles to a tank (55 litres or so at around £27).

As for your question about reliability in a different post they are reliable cars provided they are serviced regularly and with the correct fluids. I had my gearbox flushed and filled with amsoil atf after I bought the car. The car had only done 40 odd thousand miles from new and was shifting fine but the Amsoil still made a noticeable difference and the box is still going strong 15,000 miles later. I had my lifters replaced earlier this year and had the engine flushed at the same time and made the switch to Amsoil engine oil. At £60 for the oil it isn't cheap but it's cracking stuff. The atf was around £200 but I still have 3 litres left for the next change in spring.

[J18A]

I'm also on my third VR-4, it's just the way things work. My first one wasn't anything special, it had an electronic boost controller but was limited by fuel cut (0.8~ bar) and made about 290 HP with just a de-cat.

My second one I went to town on, all the mods above plus good NGK plugs and custom-built downpipes, I tuned that up to a dyno proven 340 HP and 380 Ft/Lbs of torque. It was quite the animal;





By that point the turbos were definitely at their limits and would cause oil overheating if run at high boost for extended periods of time (it was mainly built as a dyno shootout car), it's why I ended up adding switchable maps.

Since then I've seen 400 ft/lbs squeezed out of the turbos (but roughly the same power) but that was boosting to unsafe levels (I think it peaked at 1.6 bar, I personally feel 1.3 is the safe point), going beyond these figures would require better turbos / ignition mods / uprated head bolts etc.

@Gowf built SWOC, a 450 HP monster with TD-04s but he was breaking half shafts on a regular basis from all the torque it was making. It also had larger injectors and an aftermarket engine ECU.

I also vaguely remember reading that 500+ was achieved by a guy in Russia (can't remember his name) but by that point he was starting to see crank walk (at this point a forged engine would definitely be required, I would recommend anything after Gowfs levels of power would require forging and definitely stronger transmission parts.

As for tuning, my prices are here. You'll need a facelift ECU if you want switcheable maps, anti-lag and/or CEL-on-knock. I will have one (or perhaps two) for sale soon, keep your eyes peeled on the UK Parts Section.

Ps. I highly recommend you consider membership, see the link in my signature

Thanks for the reply! Woah! The second video's great! It sounds amazing! Do you know what sort of 0-60 times you were hitting with 340bhp and what was your top end like? Thanks for the tuning prices. What about the prices of actually fitting in everything you said?

Sorry, your post wasn't showing at the time.

The cars do last, I just have a stupid habit of changing vehicles far too often. Saying that I've kept the current one for nearly two years. I've not had the car on a dyno yet but I'm hoping to get a run soon, expecting to be close to 300bhp.

LPG hasn't had any affect on the performance, it was converted by a fellow member who knows his onions when it comes to LPG and was mapped by him too. His Legnum is on LPG and puts out the same power on both petrol and gas. I spent £1200 on my conversion with a 60 litre tank in the boot. It was converted in summer last year and I've had no issues since it was done. Range is around 190-240 miles to a tank (55 litres or so at around £27).

As for your question about reliability in a different post they are reliable cars provided they are serviced regularly and with the correct fluids. I had my gearbox flushed and filled with amsoil atf after I bought the car. The car had only done 40 odd thousand miles from new and was shifting fine but the Amsoil still made a noticeable difference and the box is still going strong 15,000 miles later. I had my lifters replaced earlier this year and had the engine flushed at the same time and made the switch to Amsoil engine oil. At £60 for the oil it isn't cheap but it's cracking stuff. The atf was around £200 but I still have 3 litres left for the next change in spring.

It's all good, haha! Yeah, I kind of have the same habit... 300bhp is great! The LPG conversion is something I'd definitely be willing to do! Has that enabled you to turn it into a daily? Yeah, I've read about the Amsoil oil! This community seems to be pretty satisfied with it, which is great! I definitely wouldn't mind spending the extra amount from what I've read. Is your car an automatic? I'd also like to know what the differences the auto and manual variants have in terms of top end, acceleration and economy. Do you happen to know anything regarding that?

Thanks!

[Chris.W]

As mentioned by foxdie, Gowf did make 450 bhp (well 444.7 to be exact) with around 600Nm of torque. But being as he was one of the first to do it, it cost him around £23k and lots of teething issues. For example, he ended up spending about £5k on the exhaust system as the initial manifolds he got made cracked then he had them remade.

I now have all the parts that were fitted to his car fitted to mine. But being that the majority of the stuff I have fitted is second hand (and still going strong) and that I do the vast majority of work on my car myself, it has still cost me £10k to get here. I have my ecu map dialed back a touch for safety/reliability and every day use. But it still go's like a rocket. Put it this way, from a standing start to triple figures it out drags my mates 52 reg Porsche 911!!!

There are quite a few others who have gone down the Td04 route and one or 2 who are doing it at the moment would be interesting to see how they are doing the conversion and budgets as well.

[Chris.W]

Aaaarrrggghh bloody double post. Thing my laptop doing funny things.

[J18A]

As mentioned by foxdie, Gowf did make 450 bhp (well 444.7 to be exact) with around 600Nm of torque. But being as he was one of the first to do it, it cost him around £23k and lots of teething issues. For example, he ended up spending about £5k on the exhaust system as the initial manifolds he got made cracked then he had them remade.

I now have all the parts that were fitted to his car fitted to mine. But being that the majority of the stuff I have fitted is second hand (and still going strong) and that I do the vast majority of work on my car myself, it has still cost me £10k to get here. I have my ecu map dialed back a touch for safety/reliability and every day use. But it still go's like a rocket. Put it this way, from a standing start to triple figures it out drags my mates 52 reg Porsche 911!!!

There are quite a few others who have gone down the Td04 route and one or 2 who are doing it at the moment would be interesting to see how they are doing the conversion and budgets as well.

That's pretty pricey, but from what you're saying, it seems that you can obtain the parts a bit cheaper if you buy them used. So I assume you're approximately running 450 bhp and 600Nm of torque? Yeah, I wish I had the mechanical knowledge to do that sort of stuff! What's your top end like? No way! I'd love to do that! Is it the Turbo or Carrera variant?

Yeah, hopefully they go well!

Aaaarrrggghh bloody double post. Thing my laptop doing funny things.

Yeah it's unfortunate since I tried deleting the one I did earlier!

[Nick Mann]

Top end is around 150 mph on a standard car. Gearing will run out not long after on a manual version.

0-60 is in the low 6s on a standard car. The tuning that people are mentioning above doesn't give headline power increase because our turbos are too small to flow at high revs. What is does do is give a massive torque increase in the mid range, so 0-60 times can drop to high 4s.

[giblet]

It's all good, haha! Yeah, I kind of have the same habit... 300bhp is great! The LPG conversion is something I'd definitely be willing to do! Has that enabled you to turn it into a daily? Yeah, I've read about the Amsoil oil! This community seems to be pretty satisfied with it, which is great! I definitely wouldn't mind spending the extra amount from what I've read. Is your car an automatic? I'd also like to know what the differences the auto and manual variants have in terms of top end, acceleration and economy. Do you happen to know anything regarding that?

Thanks!

All 3 of mine have been daily drivers but switching to LPG has allowed me to do more miles than I normally would simply because the cost per mile is so low. I went from spending £60 or so a week on a tank of V Power to £25-27 a week on a tank of gas. I still stick £20 of V Power in a month as the car starts on petrol and then switches over to gas once the temps are right. Majority of my driving is town based, my commute to work is just under 3 miles each way and I nip home at lunchtimes so as you can imagine there is a lot of stop start traffic. I've done long motorway trips and Sunday morning hoons out in the countryside on LPG with zero issues.

My car is an auto, I haven't driven a manual so can't comment on top end in that regard or performance and economy on the manuals. My car seemed to run out of grunt at around an indicated 135mph before my remap but managed to get close to 150 indicated after the map.

[Chris.W]

Yup that's the figures mine will make, and it is a manual too. As i said is dialled back a touch for safety. As for top end, as Nick says I would say around 150ish but I never given it that much tho, chickened out at 145mph on a German autobahn.
Was a Carrera 2.