OVERHEATING & Absolutely Clueless What To Do Help Needed

[Louis]

I see a few things listed in your other thread (vented bonnet wanted) that may contribute to the causes!.
I mean make a list from the thread, so you can give a tuner an idea of where to start.
removing the thermostat to see how it runs without one would be a start!.
then they can look at cold start mapping etc, and then poss sensor fails, and then tune from there!

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...d-bonnet/page2

Louis how can i possibly come up with a short list of what needs to be done when i i haven't got the foggiest idea of what exactly is causing the issues & what makes it harder is not being able to do any work myself , the only thing i can do is try to explain what happened when it cut out.? I can't find anybody who knows the vipec's ECU'S well isonly Euro-spec, i sent Ben an email yesterday night so i should imagine he will be getting back to me on monday hopefully.

I uploaded a few videos on youtube which i'll add links to in an hour or so.

[coney]

Louis i can't go through that thread again mate,i only read the part where HE said "there were no overheating problems when i had it & had a friend sat at the side of me" tat was enough to get the bloodpressure going again! bascally saying whatever the overheating problem is it's down to me. I don't want to go through that thread ever again.

I'll pass the message onto the people who have the car at the moment see what they say.

[coney]

Does anybody know of anywhere closer to me another place like Eurospec? o another engine rebuiders if worst case scenario somebody who knows what there doing & can stand by there work if anything goes wrong?

[coney]

this might sound an odd quiestion, but does the cooling system have a thermostat fittted.

without it the cooling system will not operate correctly the coolant will tend to just flow round and round the engine without passing through the radiator. the radiator will get hot due to convection of hot coolant but it will not be cooling the engine.

just a thought.

Dave i have no idea the best person to ask about all that sort of stuff is the person who did the actual build

[coney]

I know you have a trust issue with the person that made the overhaul. However he can probably fix all issues the quickest. Technically speaking. On human terms - I don't know where you two left off.

Not in a good way the thing what made me want to murder somebody was the fact that he said the car was fine when it was dropped off on the back of a truck.

The car had been moved a maximum of 3 times on the drive way,we had to organise the my Legnum,my Audi S2,My Chrysler voyager & my mothers landrover that was the only time it got moved before we went out in it so if something can break in that short space of time then something wasn't right from the start IMO

[coney]

IIRC, ViPec standalone ecu is now rebranded as "Link G4".
Indigo GT seems to specialize in these ecu's. And excellent tunning place as well.

Swinks i'll have to have a look at that Indigo GT see if they can work out what the fault is. Cheers buddy

[coney]

I'd be looking at your engine temp sensor and wiring from this to the Vipec. Maybe the sensor has failed or wiring has been dislodged somehow when it was transported to you. Perhaps the tuning isn't right for the temp sensor but this would have shown up in the initial 2000 miles unless your tuner is telling porkies. I'm not clear if you had the car for these 2000 miles or the tuner.
If the tuning is questionable and the ECU's getting spurious readings from temp sensor this could cause you problems starting (which I've seen from your videos) and running.
I couldn't hear much in the videos but I saw you showing a couple of dangly wires. Surely these could have been dislodged by drivers' feet.
I'd expect whoever did the work to backtrack over the fitment as a matter of urgency and not put you into a year-long queue. Maybe it's time to get tough with him?

Apeman supposedly the car was running perfectly when the tuner had it, & could very well have been telling porkies but yet a member off here was with the tuner when it did the 2000 miles there's only one person that can set the record straight but i very much doubt that will happen!

They aren't the only wires dangling down just above the footwell in the drivers side theres wires dangling down everywhere, i can't remember if there was something there before that held all all the wires up. I've got some pictures that my nephew took there not the best in the world but you should be able to see what i mean!

[apeman69]

Coney, please disregard most of what I have written thus far (except the dangly wires bit).
I had no idea of the history of your potential beast and have since read the thread pointed to above.
It seems your best course of action to get the car right is getting it to an experienced Vipec/Link tuner. Indeed, your engine builder & tuner seemed to point out that the mapping was not yet to the level that you were expecting: he commented about starting problems being related to the mapping so, clearly the tune is not ideal.
From my own experience I would urge you to get it to a Link specialist. I had similar 'not ideal' tuning with my car which Eurospec corrected (adding 21 BHP, more torque, better cold starting & running and smoother gear changes to my automatic.)
I'm sure the car isn't far from being a nice machine. Once they're modified to such an extent the mapping really needs to be seriously as good as it can be.

[Confused]

Taking it to someone new means that they will need to start from scratch with it - they will need to go over every wire, nut and bolt with a fine tooth comb, before they can even begin to actually do anything with it so that they have an understanding of what they have in front of them.

This has an advantage and a disadvantage.

The advantage is that everything will be looked at with fresh eyes, which always helps. When you are "close" to something, and have done the work yourself, you do not view it in the same critical manner as someone else, because you have done the work. I see it all the time with my Anglia - people are fascinated by things that I don't really notice any more, because I did all the work.

The disadvantage is that this process takes time, and when it's not yourself, time costs money.

[apeman69]

As the Vipec/Link Ecu is (or should be) controlling everything essential then this must surely be the starting point for fault diagnosis. A Link specialist tuner will be able to determine if sensors are working correctly, how appropriate and complete the tuning is, whether the Ecu is getting correct and expected information and how it is processing this information. It's like saying to a regular VR-4 owner "what does Evoscan tell you" but more expensive and more insightful.
The Vipec is a standalone Ecu which has been designed to replace a multitude of 'normal' Ecus and therefore the programming and diagnostic software used with it has to be comprehensive enough to cater for a multitude of vehicles, all of which have their own variances.
I understand that you may be concerned about problems with the internals of the engine but is this because the Subaru/Mitsubishi company you said put these fears into your head have not investigated the possibility of inappropriate tuning or Ecu related problems or is it because there is a definite possibility of internal problems? Did they ever find any definite problems or was it a case of "could be this, could be that, either way it's gonna cost ya"
Sorry to state the obvious but it seems you've had the wrong people (for you) working on your car start to finish. I'm not being cheeky or meaning anything negative. My sympathies really are with you and I can imagine how downbeat and stranded you may feel.

[apeman69]

BTW when you get a reply to your email to Eurospec I'd be interested to hear what their take on it is, if you don't mind sharing of course.

[Davezj]

Not the case Dave, flow of coolant is forced by water pump. Lack of thermostat will actually drop temp of coolant quite dramatically, especially under driving conditions.

I know the flow of coolant is force round by the water pump it is the direction around the engine and rad of that flow that is changed by the thermostat opening and closing.
It is either directed round and round the engine without going through the Rad when the thermostat is closed and directed through the radiator and blocks off the internal round the round the engine flow when the thermostat is open.
No Thermostat will result in both round and round the engine and through the rad what the ration will be is any ones guess without measuring properly. I suspect this will cause over heating issues.
All it takes is a slight blockage in a pipe or a slightly more of a bend in pipe that will change the direction of flow as the coolant will take the path of least restriction. If the engine was designed to run with a thermostat how can removing it be of benefit.

I presume you are going to say you have been running without a thermostat for years and had no issue. if that is true did you measure the flow of the coolant through the Rad when compared to the total flow of the water pump to establish the ratio of the flow.

[Louis]

Remove thermostat to see if it makes a difference.
a poss cause mentioned was the thermostat might not be opening!
it at least rules it out.

[Confused]

If you're stripping it down to the point of removing the thermostat - just put a new one in, and only do the labour part once.

There are some components that it makes no sense to *not* just replace - those being thermostat and engine coolant temperature sensor to name but two.

[swinks]

I presume you are going to say you have been running without a thermostat for years and had no issue. if that is true did you measure the flow of the coolant through the Rad when compared to the total flow of the water pump to establish the ratio of the flow.

Nah, I used uprated SARD 71C thermostat.
But beforehand once my old one gone stuck closed I ran for 3 days without one. Simply, you will see temperatures much below desired level so your ecu will put enriched fuelling thinking it's still warm-up time. No good for fuel consumption. That's from practical experience. Also it is quite common old-school temporary cure if you experience stuck close thermostat. Safe practice, don't worry coolant is running through rad, no doubt.

[Davezj]

yep just replace the thermostat if it is fitted, the other one is Rad cap a faulty one that does not hold pressure will allow the coolant to boil and at idle.
sensor
then rad cap
then thermstat.

in order of how easy and effectivethe fix will be.
firstly you need to know that the temp reading is correct, so you actually know if it is overheating or not, evoscan connected to the car can monitor the two wire temp sensor and the dash gauge can monitor the single wire temp sensor. it is unlikely both are failty so wait for the temp on the dash gauge to get to what you see as over heating, if the evoscan gauge temp is only 90Deg C then the single wire sensor is faulty the evoscan temp sensor can get to 110deg C in a normal working correctly car if it just left to idle at standstill. the dash gauge should be still be about halk way when the evoscan temp is at 110deg C
by the way the evoscan temp reading you should be monitoring it the cooalant temp scaled not the basic coolant temp.

once you have established the temp monitoring is working correctly you can swap the Rad cap and see if make a difference

then you can swap the thermostat to see if that make a difference.

well it is a resonable way of doing it.

[coney]

Coney, please disregard most of what I have written thus far (except the dangly wires bit).
I had no idea of the history of your potential beast and have since read the thread pointed to above.
It seems your best course of action to get the car right is getting it to an experienced Vipec/Link tuner. Indeed, your engine builder & tuner seemed to point out that the mapping was not yet to the level that you were expecting: he commented about starting problems being related to the mapping so, clearly the tune is not ideal.
From my own experience I would urge you to get it to a Link specialist. I had similar 'not ideal' tuning with my car which Eurospec corrected (adding 21 BHP, more torque, better cold starting & running and smoother gear changes to my automatic.)
I'm sure the car isn't far from being a nice machine. Once they're modified to such an extent the mapping really needs to be seriously as good as it can be.

Well tbh with you apeman i emailed this company a copy of the dyno print & map & the bloke put his head in his hands and started shaking his head & started lol. so i don't think he was impressed to say the least!
The place where its at are going to do some tests to the engine then go from there!

[Davezj]

Nah, I used uprated SARD 71C thermostat.
But beforehand once my old one gone stuck closed I ran for 3 days without one. Simply, you will see temperatures much below desired level so your ecu will put enriched fuelling thinking it's still warm-up time. No good for fuel consumption. That's from practical experience. Also it is quite common old-school temporary cure if you experience stuck close thermostat. Safe practice, don't worry coolant is running through rad, no doubt.

old skool cooling systems like the one o used to have on my MKII escort and cavalier only have thermostat open or closes to make the coolant run through the rad or not, the other valve on bottom of the thermostat is not present.
but fair enough i get what you mean, and it is good to know the coolant will run through the rad to some degree in a VR4 if the thermostat is not fitted.

[apeman69]

Thermostat working or not will not cause the sort of problems experienced in starting the car. I think all this cooling system talk will turn out to be a red herring. If an experienced tuner shakes his head and laughs at a dyno print and mapping file then what should this tell you. I speak from my own experience with mapping done by the same person as Coney. I was not too impressed and had to get it corrected.
At least mine would start without problem but ran like a dog until warm. No such problems now. Cold start mapping adjustments along with other tweaks were required.

[apeman69]

I have also had my piggyback Ecu lose it's map altogether and you really cannot imagine the effect that an incorrect tune can have on your car unless you have experienced it.